As a part of our “the world is on fire what can I do?” series, we bring in Lea Urguby, Becky’s friend of decades and someone who has, in large and small ways, changed Becky’s life. Lea brings a humility and a sociologist’s brain to this conversation and speaks about her lifelong activism with groundedness and a deep desire to be a harbinger of actionable change. She speaks with compassionate urgency about how we must build the scaffolding for community, highlighting that “we are only as strong as our interpersonal relationships.” She reminds us that community takes practice, even offering tangible steps we can take everyday like waving at a neighbor.
As someone who grew up with a mother who is very much awake to the world, Lea’s formative experiences included laying her 8 year old body down in communion with her favorite frog habitat upon learning it may be in jeopardy. Lea gracefully delivers a refreshing, long view of a world on fire. She reminds us that there are so many ways to show up as a community member— from noticing the pattern of breath in the person standing in line behind you to donating funds to a far away issue that you believe in —it all matters. Nothing is too small.
Our longest episode yet, we cover a lot of ground. From the ways art reconnects us by buoying us to joy to how hyper local organizing work is the most sustainable, this conversation is rooted in action and an understanding that we are not separate from one another. Finding our connection, Lea notes, is the greatest catalyst for change.
Here are this week’s invitations to explore this conversation further:
Check out Lea’s consulting website
Listen to Dean Spade’s podcast Love in a F*cked Up World, especially the episode with Andrea Ritchie
Listen to the NPR podcast Throughline - pretty much any episode is likely to shift your perspective on how we got to this moment
Explore the work of Prentis Hemphill
And if you haven’t read Parable of the Sower, consider yourself officially invited. Really just read all of Octavia E. Butler.
Episode Transcript
Christina: So I was thinking about our conversation with Lea and um, one of my favorite notes that I keep on my phone is people I meet with dogs and I put their name and their dog’s name so that when I’m in the woods and I see the dog, I’m like, oh, shoot. And I open up my notes app and I look for the person. I’m like, oh, great.
That’s Lisa with Buck or whoever. And it, um, it just reminds me of like, you know, her note of making a note of the person’s name, who serves you, your coffee at your local store. Um, yeah, it’s great. It’s a, it’s one extra step, but it works really well. Also, Lisa’s a jeweler. She’s a real person. I’m not just using a fake example.
Becky: Welcome to Noticing: A Podcast About Nothing And Everything At The Same Time. This week we’re joined by my dear friend Lea, who was the first person who I thought of when we started this conversation around “the world is on fire what can I do?” Lea is someone who grew up with an activist mother, and we talk about her roots.
Literally laying her 8-year-old body down in front of an excavator to save her favorite frog habitat. This episode is jam packed full of wisdom as we explore together what it means to set up scaffolding around community and how to show up as a community member. We explored so many ways. It all matters and nothing is too small.
I hope you enjoy.
So today we are joined by my dear friend Lea, who, so on this podcast, if you haven’t been listening, when we have guests, we like to introduce each other not from like, here’s your cv, here’s the bio, but like, here is how my heart sees you. So how are you perceived by someone who loves you?
Lea was actually the first person that popped into my mind when we started having these conversations around this moment and how we can each stretch ourselves a little bit, to show up in an authentic way, but in a more engaged way for this moment because Lea has been doing this work of movement and like we the conversations we’ve been having before from my perspective, have been kind of feeling into how to do something new.
And not that this moment isn’t new, isn’t new for you Lea. ‘cause it’s new for everyone. But you’ve been doing this work for so long that I was very interested to talk, um, talk to you. So Lea is, I’m remember distinctly when I met Lea, I had moved to San Diego. I was about 25 and I was, canvassing for Environment California.
So I was one of those, well-meaning big hearted, but annoying people who stands outside of the grocery store and is trying to basically guilt you into giving money. Um, and I remember, uh, almost the exact words that Lea said, which if you, my memory is not a lot of things stick like this, but this stuck.
She was basically like, you know, that they’re just, that organization’s just raising money so they can keep raising money. And it just stopped me in my track. And there was, I’ve reflected about this, about like, what was that that stopped me in my tracks and it was just the facts. But in this loving like.
There I didn’t feel an ounce of judgment for what I was doing. I felt like this loving invitation to think about the world differently. Um, and that is like the core, when I think of Lea, that’s what I think of. And so I probably quit this the next day and was like, I’m out.
And basically, became like a little puppy following Lea around. ‘cause at the same time she was, opening her, uh, to call. So it was called the Rubber Rose. And to call it a, erotic or sex shop is like selling it short. It was an art gallery. It was a, um, you know, sex positive, queer positive place to learn and grow and be in community.
And I was just, that was the first of many times my perspective. My worldview was exploded open, by Lea and, um. Yeah, the, the shop is no longer there, but her work obviously continues in many ways in her engagement in community, in her pursuits of academia.
Before she popped on, we saw an image of her gorgeous, wonderful daughter who she took to school with her in college, which I always love. Um, and is now bringing her talents to, classrooms and also to businesses and organizations who are interested in aligning their business with, sustainability, equity justice.
And, um, what we always talk about is seeding a more, loving, equitable and sustainable world. Lea is now doing that through consulting with businesses who might not have her deep well of expertise, and I’m really excited to watch that grow and progress and, yeah, very excited to have you here today.
Because like I already, already me mentioned you have such a different perspective of this moment that I definitely do. And yet just like every moment they’re unprecedented. You are in a different space personally. So I’ll open this dialogue with kind of the core of what we’re trying to get at is how is this moment living in you and what, yeah.
I’ll just stop there.
Lea: Hmm. Um, well first thanks for all those memories.
Um, that’s a fun little, a little memory lane. I love that you remember like our first meeting, sorry, environment, California or whoever it was. Greenpeace or,
Yeah, I mean, I think that this moment is living in me in a very different way than moments that have come before that have felt, you know, just as urgent, as a parent. Um, my kiddo is turning seven in a couple months and so these last seven years have really been for me, like attempting to do a really intentional pivot so that I can continue to show up in the world in the ways that I have in the past, but in a way that feels,
With, with a couple extra layers of protection around me and my family. Um, and so I, I’m just sort of sitting with the duality of what that often means. And so, um, since becoming a parent, I oftentimes feel the urgency almost more intensely. And yet, because of the work that I have done in the past and typically have done in the past, the restraint kind of comes just as quickly after.
And so it’s like a really interesting tension for me. And I think that that tension is existing for a lot of folks that I grew up in the activist space, I guess. Mm-hmm. With, um, as were many of us, um, have chosen parenthood over the last 20 years and many of us are aging and, the ways that we’re moving is very different than the ways that we would’ve used to have moved.
And so, what I find interesting about that is that the feeling that I am feeling is likely very similar to the one that people who are almost maybe new to movement work or new to sort of seeing this. Sort of the layers peel back in front of them that they might also be experiencing something very similar.
So I think it’s interesting that it sort of like brings me back full circle to sort of like entryway into movement work. Mm-hmm. Um, because I think that the tension, I think that that tension exists within a lot of folks. They feel an urgency and they feel an uncertainty about where there places in it and how to move and how to move safely.
Um, yeah. And so, yeah, I think I’ll stop there for a second. Just that’s sort of how it’s landing in my body.
Becky: Yeah.
Lea: Um, yeah, just kind of layers of, layers of conflict and sort of conflicting emotions and feelings.
Becky: Yeah.
Lea: Yeah.
Christina: I am curious what the literal difference, like, can you, can you kind of parse out what the actual difference of, maybe I’m hearing that you’re, you’re putting some more protections around your life and your family life.
Um, what does that look like in like, the literal commitment that you have in the day to day, and how are you showing up in a way that feels right for you right now in these activist spaces? Because all I’ve heard from Becky is just like, we gotta get Lea on here. She’s like, she’s the person, she’s the person that, that guides all of my activist impulses.
Gosh. And she’s just, oh my gosh. Like, tried and true. So it’s
Lea: true.
Christina: What is that? Uh, yeah, I’m curious what
Lea: that looks like. Yeah, no, that’s
Christina: like, for you,
Lea: I think that’s a great question. That’s, that’s probably really important. Um, and I guess, yeah, now that I’m thinking about how I’ll answer that, I suppose maybe the ways that I move now or maybe even possibly a little bit more, you know, wild for folks who are maybe entering into movement.
Um, so in my early activist days, 20, 26 years ago is when I kinda landed in San Diego and really found like a ho, like a activist family home. Um, I grew up in a a very open, and I would say fairly radical household with, with me and my mom. Um, my mom is, you know, just like a very classic old school hippie. There’s so many things she has done in her life that she was able to inform me even in little ways through my childhood. I grew up in the Bay Area and, um, we landed in, in Marin after my parents separated. And we ended up in like a, this low income housing condo project that they were like starting to build. So we were one of the first layers of houses or whatever. And of course like the next layers were coming and there was like this marsh behind my house.
So I’m like eight years old and like laying in front of the bulldozer, they’re like protecting my, my frogs and like all of my like tadpoles that were in there. Right. And so like, and my mom is like, you know, burning sage like around me. Like she has like some, like some like, you know, native elders that she’s in community with, that they do work around this, marshland and they’re like drumming out, you know, to the sunrise or something, you know.
So I’m.
Upbringing that has sort of situated me well for movement work, I guess. Um, but so, you know, as an adult I land in San Diego, um, as a young adult, I should barely 18. Um, and really found a home for, for what I felt I was impassionate like passionate about at that time. And it’s funny, I, I think it’s important to preface like the hippie upbringing, because I sort of fell deeply in with really incredible anarchist circles.
And at the time, early two thousands, there was really like a lot of these conversations within our circles that, like each previous movement, had really sort of like failed the urgency of the time. And so we had this idea that like the hippies kind of just, they went, they went off and they like built these alternative communities and they just kind of like grew up into yuppies and like owned houses and, you know, the woods and in the hills.
And they really didn’t like change structurally the way that, um, the world moved. And as anarchists, we were blocking streets. We were setting dumpsters on fire. We were, um, I was part of different black block organizations and so we were doing banner drops off of buildings. We were, we had friends that were like rock climbers.
And so, um. You know, I think at the time that I was meeting Becky, I had, I had some really strong opinions about what nonprofits did. Um, mm-hmm. And I, I was really deeply, um, like in that space of talking about like this nonprofit industrial complex that if we continue to fund these nonprofits, um, that are, you know, this small percentage is going to actually solving these issues, these larger percentages are going to pay, you know, paychecks and whatever else in structural organization.
and I was just like deeply in, um, in, in radical direct action. Um, so a lot of, I had a lot of friends actually that had come down to San Diego. We were doing a lot of work around, the militarization of the border in early 2000, 2001, 2002. Um, the war in Iraq was gearing up and starting in 2003, whereas we were doing a lot of anti-war action.
Then. I had a lot of friends who had come down from the Pacific Northwest, and they had been in, in 1999, there was what was called like the Battle of Seattle, and it was against the World Trade Organization, and it was this sort of like huge sort of moment for like anarchist action. So those, those were the people, those were my folks.
We were shutting down the five freeway. We were traveling to Sacramento for biotech conventions and planning actions. I was arrest, I, we have different terms within, direct action and rapid response work, which is like arrestable or non arrestable. Um, and so I was often open to being arrested.
Not because I was like excited about being arrested, but also because a lot of my work that I was doing was surrounding aspects of, like white heteronormative privilege. Um, I carry a lot of privilege with me when I move into spaces and I understand that I’m gonna be treated differently based on what action I might, carry out versus somebody else in a different position, in different body.
And so, yeah, so those were a lot of the spaces that I was in. So I’m, to say that I’m moving very differently. It’s like an understatement. Um, but I mean, it was interesting in, in 2020 when, the movement for Black Lives was really taking off. And we were, you know, it was, I feel it was such, the combination of all the things we were, a lot of us were home.
The COVID Pandemic really highlighted a lot of those, inequities. There was a moment that I was like sitting in, my room upstairs, and I can see, I can see the Coronado Bridge from like my window. And the five freeway was being shut down by activists. And they had rushed in on all of the, on-ramps, and they were shutting down the Corona Bridge and they were shutting down the freeway.
And I was, um, my role was to sit at home on my computer and monitor various, like police channels. So I’m like sitting there nursing my, um, you know, one and a half year old, um, monitoring police chats and then, you know, sending messages to the people who were on the ground. And I’m like, it was just a full circle moment, the fact that I could actually see them from my house.
And I just, I could feel, I could feel the conflict in my body. I could feel the tension in my body, and it had to be like a constant reminder of like, this work is important.
Becky: Mm-hmm.
Lea: This work is important and I, you know, I look down at my kid and this work is important. Um, yeah. Yeah.
Becky: Mm-hmm.
Lea: When I was opening the Rubber Rose, it was, I opened in 2006 and it was through a lot of conversations from folks in the early two thousands, you know, having that commentary like, oh, the hippies did nothing.
And then really realizing that. We are only as strong as our interpersonal relationships. And so the conceptualizing and the creation of a feminist sex shop that would be a space for exploration of relation to one another was really from this idea of like, oh, maybe we are just supposed to think about how, how we are in relationship, how we have sex with each other, how we form alliances with one each other.
How we open up and close off relationships in different ways. Um, and so I do often talk about that. It was funny sort of opening the rubber rose was like a, a, a nod back to Oh, okay. My mother’s generation. I, I I see, I see some work that was done there. You know? And, um, and it was really about how do you know how are we in relation with one another?
Um, because even in a few short years of doing that really intense direct action work, I was already able to see so many relationships that had been shattered.
Becky: Mm-hmm.
Lea: Through the way that we hurt when we’re hurt. Mm-hmm. Um, through the way that we kind of pick apart things that could be collaborative, um, when we’re coming from a harmed space, how we inflict harm on one another when we’re carrying all of our baggage with us, as we all do.
Becky: Mm-hmm.
Lea: Yeah.
Becky: This has been a thread that’s really been, alive in me lately. So we were texting recently about the podcast from Dean Spade Love in a Fucked Up World I feel like what Dean is, is doing is bringing that awareness to our movement work is about our relationships.
Lea: That’s right.
Becky: But rooted in the movement space. And I’ve been reflecting on, that’s kind of a central thesis of my work is about our relationships and how we can strengthen our relationship with ourselves and, and our community members and our family so that we can join movement work.
So I feel like when I listened to, to Dean and when I listened to you speak right then, it feels like a lots of people are coming to the same awareness from different, perspectives, and we need all those perspectives, and like we’ve been talking so much about community, like we need to be in local community, and I’ve been really reflecting on I don’t know how to naturally be in community.
It’s like, we say it as like, it’s this thing that everyone knows how to do. And that hasn’t been my experience, you know? And so like you’re, I’m hearing you speak about movement spaces where harm can be caused, you know, if the internal work isn’t, I, I’m putting, I’m not, these weren’t your words, but this is what I sensed.
It’s like mm-hmm. If we’re in movement spaces or if we’re in communities and not doing the relational work of understanding our triggers, understanding the harm that we bring, the biases we bring, um, then the community that we create is just gonna be replicating harm. So, um, yeah. It’s been a really, a live thread for me lately.
It’s like how to be in community and recognizing, I can’t be the only one out of billions of people on this planet who don’t know how to be in community and have to learn those skills.
Lea: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think that, you know. Prentis Hemphill talks about this a lot as well, where we can only practice community in community.
We can only practice relating in relationship, and yet how do we get to those places of beginning that? And I think that, as the way that we interact with one another changes and it changes more and more rapidly, we have to figure out what those new ways of connecting can look like.
I mean, I think that like through spaces of social media, there can be a feeling of disconnection for some people or an uncertain way, of moving, is this the right way to reach out or is this how, how do I respond? Or whatever else. And so there’s definitely, I feel a push towards, you know, community IRL.
Mm-hmm. Like actually seeing people in real life. Um, and also, you know, the complications of the COVID-19 pandemic really also is like an isolating factor as well. And so I, I feel. That we are all relearning ways of building community from where we are. So some people are building it in those online spaces.
Some people are really trying to find those connections through those social spaces. Some people are really trying to get back out and get into community with people, and there is no roadmap of how to do it because it’s something that we have been doing as humans for a very long time. And then all of a sudden there has been sort of this disconnect.
Mm-hmm. Where now we’re staring at screens and we’re staring at computers and we’re not, we’re not sure how to do the relating thing. So often we talk about, or we hear people talk about, and we also talk about like, oh yeah, exactly what you’re saying. We need to build community. We need to find the ways that we need to connect.
And I’m just gonna share like, some tangible things because I think that that’s always what’s missed. But it’s like you can say hello to your neighbor when you are walking to your car. Like you can ask and try and remember the person’s name who makes you coffee. If you go to a coffee shop often you can say hi to the bus driver if it’s your same driver every single time.
You can make like these small, tiny, little connections. Because once we start making those little ones, we get braver and each time we make a new connection, it’s a little bit more bravery and it’s a little bit more sturdy on our feet when we say hi to the next person. So maybe you can practice waving it to your neighbor every time you go to the car.
And, you know, maybe in six months you can say, Hey, I made this soup and I made entirely too much because I just kept trying to adjust the flavor. And do you, you know, a long rambling introduction of, would you like some, can I share my food with you? You know? And then the next time you see them they say, oh, I shared it with this person.
You know, and then, and then slowly those connections come back and I think it’s, we forget that that’s how we do it.
Becky: I mean, I’m thinking of you. Yeah, yeah. I’m, I’m thinking of Christina this whole time. ‘cause you show me this, like, we were talking a couple episodes about, you know, sharing a flower with the delivery driver who brings your groceries when, when it comes. So I’ve learned this through watching you, Christina and others.
Tarra’s actually pretty good at this. And I recognize and honor it is hard sometimes. It’s simple as a wave, but we’ve gotten so disconnected when I see my neighbor. We have, I live in the country, so we don’t have a TI don’t have a ton of activity around me, but our neighbor across the street. I have, I feel activation in my body just seeing him there.
Like with the anticipation I’m of, I’m gonna have this in, uh, have to have an interaction and you know why that’s for my therapist. But, you know, it’s, it’s the, you called that, you called that up beautifully. It’s like one little thing. Okay. Start waving. So, which I do now, you know, and then we bring soup, which we do now, but it, you do have to build slow and there’s nothing wrong with
Lea: that.
Yeah. You have to build it.
Becky: Yeah.
Lea: Yeah. And there’s nothing wrong with the scaffolding of it, because I think that, and I think that we have to say that out loud and remind people that there’s nothing wrong with the building of it because we, we live in a world that is increasingly more and more, actually, I won’t say it that way.
We are aware of more and more ways that we are unsafe. Mm-hmm. Because I think that the world has always been very unsafe. And I think that sometimes we talk about it in this way, that it has becoming more and more unsafe. And this is just like my, my socio sociology brain. Um, we are actually like significantly a less dangerous world than we have been in centuries past.
Um, like we don’t have like daily beheadings in different places, you know, like all over the entire world. Like we just have it in some places now. It’s, you know, the charts are like trending towards. Less violent. Um, but we are hyper aware of the violence and we are hyper aware of the ways that, that humans harm each other, in such a way that, that having a stranger come to you and start speaking to you, or having you as a stranger, going and speaking to another person feels incredibly unsafe.
Mm-hmm. And that’s fine. And so the scaffolding is so important. And also like, just to speak to the thing that you’re saying, you know, when you’re in a more isolated space, sometimes that is your safe space. And so sometimes those scaffoldings are in online communities or they’re in, you know, phone conversations or, or book clubs or places for, you know, I always love to remind people that there is different inroads to the ways that we build community.
You can be an anonymous user on a Reddit thread and like, that’s so important. You know,
Christina: I was born in 1986 and my dad, I remember, so I have, um, an almost 9-year-old and twins who are almost six. So my kids like split your kids’ age. Oh. And um, and I remember talking to my dad when I was pregnant with my son, who’s the one who’s almost nine. And I said, were you also totally freaked out about bringing a kid, like bringing me into the world in 1986?
And he was like, yeah, it was a scary time. Yeah. Yeah. And so I don’t know if I’ve said this on this podcast or not. I feel like I’ve said it to Becky before in real life, but, um, it’s always, there’s always that feeling. Um, mm-hmm. And I also just like, I don’t self-identify as an activist like you do. So this is such a cool conversation for me to hear.
And you’d probably tell me all these different ways that I am an activist, but I, you know, I wouldn’t, I wouldn’t self identify as that. And, what you’re saying about being like, the way that we seed the world we want to live in, and you speak about this so beautifully, is, is the same fabric that I’m weaving beneath my feet too.
And so when you’re saying, here’s how we actually make community is by actually meeting each other in real life, if we feel safe to do so, and, and. I’m pointing these same things out to people in my world too. Like, don’t be afraid to ask someone for a stick of butter. Don’t be afraid to walk up and do these things.
And Becky’s right, every time if we get a grocery delivery, sometimes here, if we don’t have the bandwidth to like actually go to a store, I will, actually cut a flower from the garden and make sure that I do it before these people leave. And I always walk up and I say, this is for you. And it’s, it’s, it’s like, what this is for me.
You’re, you’re looking at me and I’m like, yes, thank you. You really helped my day and this I want you to have. Um, yeah. And you know, I would also be like, my name’s Christina. Here are my kids. I really love my life. Like what do you have to tell me? But I, but like,
Lea: yes, yes,
Christina: I get that they now have to go and like meet some other people who will think that their wallpaper.
But it’s so important to meet a human with your own humanity as often as you possibly can. Absolutely. I’m so happy you’re here. It, it just makes me so, um, I mean, I knew that like, whoever Becky is like enthusiastically wanting to have a conversation is, is a wonderful human being. But, but hearing you speak about your experience and the, the groundedness I feel from you and the clarity that I feel from you, and also, just like the, like the, the sweeping fairness and understanding with which you approach your life is, really something to hear.
Thank you. I’m glad you’re showing up in the world the way that you are. And I see the posters behind you and I see that this is like a lifelong calling. Um, and I also love picturing you as the 8-year-old laying in front of a bulldozer and a marsh because there’s a part of me that is that too. Like I see myself in you in that.
Um, but it’s so clear that you were born into a situation that like served your calling too, because you could have chosen another path and it’s, you have not.
Lea: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Thank you for those reflections. Like truly Thank you for those reflections. I was thinking about, um. And if I get this wrong, tell me, you make art.
Yeah. You make beautiful art, right? You were, yes. Um, and often your art is in public spaces more, or you’ve a chance to do more. Okay.
Christina: Yeah.
Lea: I wanted to weave this piece in because as we were talking about it, it was just, it kind of ke keeps nudging at me. I have a lot of, um conversations like this with another friend of mine who’s an incredible artist.
Um, I’ll just say she’s an artist. She’s, she doesn’t make physical art, but she creates spaces and, music and, and all of that. Um, and she often feels really, really lost, in the ways that the world is sort of just like throwing, tossing us all sort of adrift in these boats. Um, and I just, I keep reminding her what I keep hearing over and over again about how art is, is something that is so necessary to reground us and to re bring us back into, um, moments of joy and, and sort of snap us back into this moment.
Um. In her case, she creates like soundscapes and, and music, compilations. And so people can really, and people say this to her, they, they fall deeply into her mixes and just like for a time are sort of buoyed right by that. And I think about your pieces that I’ve seen and in public spaces, that that also is that connection, right?
You are passing by and somebody else is glancing at the work. And as you pass by, you’re also seeing this work. You know, and just saying to the other person, isn’t it incredible how the light comes through that piece?
Christina: Yes.
Lea: Like, isn’t it incredible? And the other person, the team goes, I was just marveling at it.
And then, and then, you know, you get to say like, so excited that the sun is out today. And, and you know, I hear it’s gonna rain tomorrow and like, ah, this is so beautiful. I can’t believe this work is here. Right? Mm-hmm. And so, especially public art, especially like the ways that we get to interact with things that suddenly like snap us into that joy for a moment, that get to buoys those, facilitate the connections and those facilitate the building of community.
And then maybe somebody else comes and says, oh, let’s meet at the fountain next to where, the, the copper pieces are, or something like that, or whatever, right? And then all of a sudden it’s now a meeting place and then it’s a, and, and just that’s the scaffolding too. And I just, I wanted to bring that in because I kind of just kept.
Nudging at me in a way. So, yeah. Yep.
Christina: You nailed it. That’s totally it. I mean, even this particular piece that you’re referring to with like the water that goes behind these bronze pieces in a public place, I went to photograph it or something after it was done and like the fences were all off. And, when I was there, there was an art school student in a photography class with who I’m pretty sure was her boyfriend, and they were taking photos of the way that the light moved on this work.
And I sat there and I watched her see, wow, this is actually making me a little emotional, but I watched her see this work that was a culmination of so much of my time and love for the world and energy and willingness to share myself fully. And she was wondering in awe about it for a photography class in art school.
And I stopped after enjoying this. Like, I, I enjoyed it as an audience member. And I walked up to her and I said, I have been where you have been and I cannot believe that you are photographing my work right now for your. Photography class, like this is such a full circle moment for me, and I want you to know that where you’re standing is so close to me still.
Lea: Yeah.
Christina: And this is so special. And, um, I wasn’t like, I did not have tears in my eyes. I just had like this incredible joy for her in sharing this experience with myself 15 years ago. That’s right. And it was incredibly powerful. And that piece is literally called noticing, which
the whole
Lea: 0.0, it’s so good. Yes. It’s the whole point. It’s,
Christina: it’s the whole point.
Lea: And that is the whole point. I mean, I know that obviously you named your podcast that as well. And it is the whole point. It is seen and to be seen.
I totally got emotional listening to it because I think that that’s such like a powerful moment. And I also had this thought while you were saying the closeness, to be having a conversation with her and saying, you were so close to where I am. I am so close to where you are. And I think that when we talk about organizing and when we talk about activism and things like that.
And this, again, I, I love that you brought in the, the, your, your job with the canvassing company because I think that this is often the disconnect that happens. That we are often very removed from the thing that we think that we’re doing organizing work for, or that we’re doing charity for. And that removal creates a disconnect that allows us to think that we are not close.
And so when you start to move closer and you start to do the work in your community and you start to, actually, and this was just recently on Dean, Dean Spade was just talking about this, I think it was in the episode with Andrea Richie, who is a phenomenal organizer, activist, lawyer, phenomenal writer.
They were talking about really the hyper localization of doing organizing work. there are always people starving near you. There are always people unhoused near you. You may be the person who needs assistance near you. Right? And so when we come closer, we can see that, you know. What’s that phrase?
Like, barely by the grace of God, I, you know, I mm-hmm. Go, I, or whatever that phrase is or whatever. Like, there is only a slight deviation that I am here and you are here.
Christina: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Lea: And so when, for me, that’s what I feel is so important about doing, organizing locally and saying hello to your neighbor and saying hi to the rest because the closeness is, is often so much more important.
And the work feels so much more grounded, and I think it ends up being more sustainable because we see, you know, oh, one medical emergency, I would be where you are.
Christina: Mm-hmm.
Lea: Right? Um, oh, one extra little gift would’ve gotten you where I am. Would one little extra piece that helps me would’ve gotten me to where they are up there, right?
Mm-hmm. Um, whereas when we have these things where we’re, we’re sort of tossing our funds or our money to this thing that feels far off or whatever, it ends up not being as sustainable, because there is a separation and we have this superiority about, oh, well I’m, you know, I’m not that,
it’s so funny, the dean, Dean Spade says this too, in that podcast, he was like, not to say don’t send money to things that are happening in far off places, because if you don’t, you know, whatever. But like, but like things like, you know, these larger nonprofits that are sort of vaguely supporting these things far away, right?
There is still direct, mutual aid projects that you can do with people far away, that are making direct impacts. And I think that’s important. whether it’s in connection, whether it’s in witnessing art, whether it’s in witnessing each other, whether it’s in noticing how the light moves, whether it’s in noticing that there’s a person that needs support that’s standing next to you.
Mm-hmm. Noticing the breathing of the person in line behind you and turning and asking if you’re okay. You know? Yes. The ways that, yeah, the ways that, that we, we can show up for each other and have to just be reminded that the bravery is there to do it, and also that the bravery is there to be witnessed in doing it.
Yes. Like, I’ve had a really hard few years and I still go out and I’m trying to find ways out into, you know, community, not necessarily organizing or activism, but like, community art events or, you know. Being with other humans, listening to music or whatever else. And I have moments where people are like, how are you?
And I just am like, oh, I’m gonna start crying. I’m having a hard time. And then I often like, have cried a lot and these last couple years, you know? And so the bravery that it takes to actually answer truthfully or to answer, you know, with, with a real, like thoughtful responses. I’m having a really hard time and this is why.
And having somebody meet you with, oh, I I I’ve been where you’re mm-hmm. The closeness again,
Becky: it’s really striking me as you say that like, this piece of the bravery is so important because when you were talking about, the, the person that’s starving in our community, the, the unhoused person and how close we are to them, I think that can also be a source of activation, right?
That’s a, that’s a real source of, of, and by activation, I mean however that shows up in your body, but it could be fear, it could be whatever. And, I intuit that. A lot of time. That’s what keeps us from engaging in those spaces because what you’re talking about, even answering that question of how are you doing, answering it honestly when you’re not doing so well is uncomfortable.
And that takes Yeah. Bravery. And it takes, a level of tolerance within your own system to stay with the discomfort. And that’s the internal work that I encourage people to do, is to notice the activation and, and I’m speaking for myself. I feel it. Yeah. If I pass someone who’s, I think this is why I did need to live in the country to protect my safe space a little bit, to just, I have a very sensitive system.
And when I am encountered with someone who’s unhoused, it hits me very deeply. I don’t think it hits me as fear. I think it hits me as interconnection
Lea: yeah.
Becky: And I notice if I don’t have the capacity to actually feel that and be with that, it makes me wanna turn away. Mm-hmm.
And it makes me not want to say, Hey, do you need anything? We are social creatures.
We want to be in community, we want to be in relation, and it’s challenging. The, the thing that that has stuck with me recently is Chani Nicholas was talking about community and she was like, community’s annoying. Like, we’re all annoying humans, you know?
Lea: Yeah.
Becky: And being in community means being with people who annoy you and knowing that you are annoying them, and that’s community and that’s uncomfortable.
So we have to get comfortable with discomfort.
Lea: There was just like a couple things that, that came up in different ways. One is the avoidance of the thing that feels really hard seeing somebody that’s unhoused.
Seeing somebody that’s struggling with mental health, seeing somebody that’s hungry. And I immediately thought of the ways that we keep childbirth secret so that people will continue to like, have babies. Because if you knew or if you were in the room, supposedly you would never do it. Right? And I think that there is like a tool of capitalism here that is like, don’t interact with this person who’s unhoused, because then you’ll see that capitalism is only existing on a thread.
That, that phrase, you are much closer to being homeless than you are to being, you know, a millionaire. Or I think the phrase is like a billionaire, but it’s, it’s actually like a millionaire. Like you were much closer to being homeless than, than having two months of rent in your pocket.
And I think that the, the work of capitalism has almost done the work of like keeping childbirth secret. That same thing of like, don’t tell them how hard it is or else they won’t keep having babies. Don’t tell them that, you know, their position in this capitalist rent society is so tenuous that they could almost end up there.
They’ll figure out a different way to do it, right? And so it’s like when you invite the world into understanding what it means to birth children into this world, you actually do start to think of a different way to exist in this world, you start to think about the ways that the systems would actually need to be different in order for us to actually be, cared for properly, to move in this world as mothers and as children.
And that we would actually, ideally change the way that the world functions because the way that the world treats children is just horrific. Mm-hmm. Right? Um, and so I think that capitalism functions in all of those arenas to keep us siloed in order to not find the connection, because in finding the connection is the catalyst for the change.
Mm-hmm.
Becky: Mm-hmm.
Lea: Right?
Becky: Yeah.
Lea: And I’ve heard this said a lot of times there’s activism and, you know, somebody standing on the corner, the sign that’s, you know, you’re doing activism, but then there’s organizing. And organizing is a concerted effort to connect with one another is to create change.
Right. Um, Alicia Garza talks about this in, her book, the Purpose of Power. And so, organizing is that intention. It is the thing that if we. Connected with the person on the corner, we would see that there are threads that can weave us together that can make some system stronger. If we connect with the midwives in our community who are supporting the birthing people in our communities, we would start to see that there are threads that can stitch us together that will support the community as a whole and lift us.
Right? That is organizing work. And when it’s done incredibly hyper locally, it has such impact that it then does that thing where, you know, as a parent you’re like, fill your own cup so that you can pour into others or whatever else, right? Like you are filling the cup of your community so that that community can rise together.
So that the work that you can do then if you choose to push out into the community next to yours, into another space that you now have tools, oh, this worked here. What’s working in your city? Right. Um, like I think on the, on the topic of like houselessness, there’s, in Houston, I think it was, there was a, they did this really intentional housing first initiative where they just got people into housing.
There was no, you know, you have to fill out these, you have to be sober, you have to do these doctor’s appointments, you have to do this, whatever else. And they just got people into houses. And I remember listening to this interview, with a person that went through the program and he was talking about how he was going and meeting the social worker and he was getting on the list, um, to get housing.
And then he was like, all right, you’re all set. When we find a place, I’ll let you know. And he was like, okay. Like, you know, I, I, I think my mailbox expired, whatever. And she was like, well, you, you hang out a lot on 16th and Broadway, right? And he was like, yeah, yeah, I’m usually there, you know? And she was like, yeah, I’ve seen that’s, that’s why I, why I found you remember when we first met?
And she’s like, I’ll come find you.
Christina: Mm-hmm.
Lea: And he was like, okay. You know, and it took some time, I think it was like a month or two later, he said in the interview, and she found him because she, as a social worker in this program had done the work to notice Yes. The people on the street and know that that was that one person and this is this other person.
And that’s, you know, Sierra and that’s, you know, Monty, and that’s Michael and over there is Brenda, blah, blah, blah. And she had done the work and so she knew where he would be staying, right? And then he gets housed and so that sort of hyperlocal noticing, right? Then that can be transferred, oh, what they’re doing in Houston might work in la Oh, but we have this different way that we’re doing this.
Maybe we can bring these things together. And so then that’s when our organizing, when we’re doing it on a really local level and we’re making those connections, can then have those webs that sort of spread out a little bit further. And then this is a total pivot, but the last thing I was thinking about when you said that you wanted to move out into the country.
Becky: Mm-hmm.
Lea: Um, I don’t know if either of you have read Parable of the Sewer, but there’s. The main character, has a condition where she feels very deeply, like to the point where she is debilitating. Like if she watches somebody be hurt, she experiences the pain. And so, it’s like a post-apocalyptic era and people have been shot and she’s seen them, or they’ve been killed or whatever else, and she literally will be knocked out by the pain and she’ll be unable to walk, unable to do anything.
And I think that for people who feel incredibly deeply, like such as yourself, Becky, there is a need to do a level of removing so that the work that you do is possible. Yeah. So like in the book, right, Olamina, um, if she sees that something bad is about to happen, she’ll turn her whole body and she’ll move into a different space and she’ll, and she’ll run.
And then oftentimes, like she has other people who know that she can’t witness the thing, and then they will run to protect her so that she can then protect these children that they need to continue to usher along the road and get to a safe place, right? And so there’s ways that we have to pivot and move and, right, like I was saying at the opening of this, I had to figure out ways to pivot and move so that I could continue to do work in a way that felt safe, that wouldn’t inflict any more harm on myself or on my child or on my family unit in any way.
Becky: Mm-hmm.
Lea: And I think it’s important. We talk about capacity? Yes. When we’re talking about organizing and activism, because I think when we’re be honest with our levels of capacity, we can actually move more confidently and with more bravery in the spaces that we know we might be able to affect change.
Becky: Mm-hmm.
Lea: Yeah.
Becky: Thank you for saying that. And also for seeing me, I’m always very grateful to be seen. And uh, it’s interesting, I literally just finished Parable of the Sower. I did the audiobook, which I highly recommend. The narrator’s amazing. And I had started it a couple years ago but then kind of stopped ‘cause it was feeling a little too, the apocalyptic side of it was feeling a little close to home.
Yeah.
Lea: A friend. And it supposedly takes place in 2020,
Becky: like now. Yeah. It’s like 20, 27 ish. Yeah. But a friend of mine was like, no, no, keep going, keep going. And, and I, I did. And it, it is incredible. And it, um, it is true. We have to resource ourselves and recognize that we’re all different. We all have different capacities, we all have different, backgrounds and traumas and triggers and, and like I agree.
I, we moved to the country right before COVID just ‘cause, you know, that’s how it worked out. And if I had. My system couldn’t have taken it being in the city. But having this safety of like my safe space in nature allowed me to do incredible work internally to resource myself. It allowed me to expand my awareness of the world in ways that I wouldn’t have been able to do if I didn’t feel so physically safe.
Like mm-hmm. To understand and dive into, like you said it already, Lea, that the, it’s not necessarily that the world is more violent, it’s our access to the awareness of it that’s new. And because I was so resourced, I was able to go and look, you know, not from a That’s right. And find my, not from a i, I always wanna distinguish,
doom scrolling on in. I don’t even like that phrase. Like, getting fed from an algorithm has its purpose and it’s a tool. Getting the Daily News, has a purpose in it. It’s a tool, but what I found is that wasn’t giving me the wisdom that I really needed. So I turned to, like podcasts like Throughline is incredible.
Like giving me the history of, of this moment, you know, reading James Baldwin, like going into really trying to understand, um, what I hadn’t been seeing this whole time, but not from a place of reactivity I have found, the more I do this work, if we’re in those reactive.
Trying to keep up with the news, you know, trying to just like consume. I feel like that is a reactive perspective, and usually because we’re trying to fix it or push it away, because really taking it in, and this might not be universal, maybe it was just my experience, right? Um, but for me it was like I had to step back and get regulated and then really understand like, let me really understand the history of this country and how we got here.
Um, and I’m always filling in gaps and I’m always learning, but I, what I, what’s really striking me is I had to feel safe, physically safe to do that work because it’s so destabilizing. If you haven’t grown up laying in front of bulldozers when you’re eight and you were taught a certain version of the world, it’s so destabilizing to go into these spaces and, and learn something new.
So finding your resourcing and finding safety is so important.
Lea: And can I, and I just wanna just affirm that the destabilizing, it’s not just, it’s not just that, oh, I’m gonna see something and it’s gonna hurt my feelings.
Becky: Mm-hmm.
Lea: The destabilizing is that it disallows us from acting. It dis allowss us from continuing to connect.
And so a lot of times for folks. If people are not doing that inner work to be resourced within themselves, if they are being confronted with sort of the horrors of the world for like, some of the first times, um, our, you know, innate thinking is I need to shut down and protect. Mm-hmm. And so we, we go inward more and more in a way to protect our systems and we don’t then open back up.
And so the resourcing that you’re speaking to is important because the next step in that is to then open up again and then to step out.
Becky: Yeah.
Lea: Because if we, if we stay in that destabilization space, we do not do the next step of reaching out.
Becky: Yeah.
Lea: For a lot of people, some people can be in a space of this is, this is awful.
I’m feeling totally activated and triggered and destabilized, and I’m gonna pack a bunch of lunches and I’m gonna go give them to people around me or whatever else. Right? Yeah. But not a lot of people can move and continue to then go out and resource others from a space of destabilization. And so I just wanna name that.
Mm-hmm. I think that sometimes there’s this, there’s a, there’s a culture of self care.
Becky: Yeah.
Lea: That has taught us. You know, in these last, like decade or so that like, oh, there’s a lot going on. We need to regulate our system. And it’s like, okay, sure. Yes. And there’s a next step after the re system is regulated, you go out and you do the things that need to be done in order to make the thing that so destabilized you, not continue to happen to somebody else again.
Becky: Mm-hmm.
Lea: Right? Um, and so we’ve, we’ve, I feel like we’ve gotten to a space where we can like bubble bath away our like emotional trauma response to seeing, you know, children murdered by, you know, forces across the world, right? Mm-hmm.
Becky: Yeah.
Lea: Um,
Becky: I I, I love it. Thank you for naming this. Yeah. Yeah. I, because I live in, I, I feel like we are being asked to hold multiple truths at once, right now, so much because, um, and I feel this, this is why you’re always the angel devil on my shoulder when I’m doing any of my work because, uh, I, I know I’m like, I am very squarely in, I want to help individuals resource themselves, regulate their nervous system, develop presence.
So that they can come back out into the world. And it’s, it’s so nuance. Even the conversation around shutting out uh, Instagram or shutting out the, you know, um, it’s very nuanced because you could take that and somewhat if I said, protect your system, you know, don’t get on Instagram. You could, someone could take that as I’m telling you, go put your head in the sand, you know, don’t pay attention.
And that’s absolutely not what I’m saying. And what a lot of people are saying, it’s both true, that you are being invited into, if you want to, seed a more, equitable loving and sustainable world, you’re being invited into regulate your nervous system because then you will be moving from a place of clarity so you know what your right action is.
And this moment is inviting all of us into action’s. This is not the time to bubble bath the world away because bubble bathing, people in comfort who have bubble bath their the world away for quite a long time is why the world is getting so loud, you know?
Lea: That’s right. Yeah.
Christina: I’m curious about something, and I don’t know, like if you feel comfortable speaking about this, but, um, you have a child, how did becoming a parent, how did that, like how did, how did you experience the shift from the before and after of being a parent in an activist space?
Like, did it change anything for you? I know, I know you said you have more protections around, but was there anything, I mean, like I’m speaking as someone who knows what it feels like to not be a parent and then be one and all of the things that you have to figure out, in yourself once that happens and all of the demands, especially, um, as someone in a female body, all of the demands of what are asked of us in that moment.
Um, did that, did that shift anything for you? And did you have to, um, did you have to sort of bubble up a little bit in that? Or were, are you just so steeped in this that you were like, Nope, I’m gonna rock on,
Lea: I think it’s, it’s, it’s been a little bit of both. I have had the privilege of having a lot of young people in my life. I am I’m the youngest, so I, my dad had, has three other daughters, who are all older than me. And so I have a pretty big crew of nibbling, that I’ve gotten to be around for a long time.
Um, and who sort of like witnessed me, you know, my, my youngest nibbling is a senior in high school and the oldest, now has a three-year-old, you know, so, mm-hmm. Um, I think that I got a lot of practice talking about what I do, and being vocal and being open. And sometimes the work that I do in the world, like surrounding, being present with queer identity and being, outspoken about, uh, you know, dismantling systems of white supremacy and things like that have, paved the way for, you know, my nephew who’s a white man, to marry a black woman, for them to have a biracial child and for me to continue to hold space within my predominantly white family, for, you know, my, my now niece by marriage, I dunno what you call that, but she’s, I’m.
Love her so much, you know, um, to know that she’s safe with me and will be, I will, I will use my voice in rooms that she’s not in to protect her space. Right? It’s given, my youngest the ability to show up, in a changing gender space, right? To say for a while that they’re identifying under a different name, that they’re identifying under a different gender.
And for me to, be the person, you know, the auntie that’s in the room that will say boldly what maybe their, at their 14-year-old self or 15-year-old self don’t really have the bravery to say, right? So I think that, I think that my nibblings have prepared me in a lot of ways to have a child. But because of that I oftentimes question the age appropriateness of some of my conversations.
You know, we live in a predominantly Latinx neighborhood, and you know, there’s a lot of stickers that say like, fuck ice, or, you know, ya, BAA or whatever. And my kid has, um, lovingly adopted the F word since like age three. Um, and, um. You know, I’ve had to have a lot of conversations with her about it, but she, you know, she’ll like read the signs and she, you know, she’s like, fuck
ice. You know, it’s like, what’s ice? And I’m like, oh, it’s, it’s an acronym. It stands for immigration control enforcement, whatever. And, um, you know, and we get to have really, I think my proximity to where I am. We also have a lot of really important conversations. Her really close friend was, detained when she came back.
Um, you know, and they put this poor 8-year-old in an immigration room, separated her from her older brothers that she went on a trip. She went, they went on a trip, to go see family. And her parents couldn’t go because they are undocumented, but she was born here. She has her paperwork, and Sure.
You know, some people will say, oh, well, they were probably making sure that, you know, there is work that border control does to make sure that young girls aren’t being trafficked or whatever else. And it’s like, these are clearly her siblings, they all look alike. Um, you know, and they forced information out of her.
They said, where do you live and what’s your address and what’s your parents’ names and what’s your phone number? And here’s this 8-year-old sitting alone in this room. You know, her mom was telling me when she got back, and I was just like in tears thinking about it, you know? Yeah. And, and you know, we were speaking in Spanish and so Nava could only kind of understand like a couple different things.
But she was like, what happened? And you know, and so I talked to her about it because here’s this experience that her friend is gonna have. I’m not gonna let her friend experience this on her own.
Christina: Yeah.
Lea: Right. And so to an extent there is like a proximity privilege. I dunno if I need to say, say it well to say it like that, but there’s proximity opportunities for us to continue and to talk about that, that exists there.
Um, but it does feel, I, I do oftentimes like have to think about and pause, or explain my actions a little bit differently. So, like as an example, and this is like about age appropriateness, just as far as like conceptualizing. Um, but, uh, when during the election cycle, my mom was talking about Kamala Harris and like my ex-wife was talking about her and you know, everybody was talking about, you know, we could have our first woman president, yada, yada, yada, all this other stuff.
And leading up to the election, I don’t know if either of you heard of it, and I feel like it came out entirely too late, but it would’ve been a really, an amazing strategy. But there’s a strategy called Vote Swap. Did either of you hear about this? No. It was this idea that if you’re like in a solidly blue, so within the work of electoral politics, the work never really ends in order to attempt to break the two party system.
Right? So even in a highly important election year, like Kamala Harris versus Trump, right? As the Democratic nominee and the Republican nominee, there is still the work of third party systems that are attempting to continue to break the two party system.
Christina: Mm-hmm.
Lea: Right? So like working Families Party was doing a lot of work leading up to it.
Um, there was a lot of people, talking about that there’s, you know, there’s people on the peace and freedom party, there’s people in the Green Party, there’s like, and there was all this language around like, no, we just have to, we have to barrel behind the Democratic nominee because that’s gonna have the most impact.
Otherwise we’re gonna split our vote and it’s gonna be diluted. Right? There’s a concept of vote swapping, so you’re in a solidly red state and you are like a radical activist and there’s no way that you would vote for the cop Kamala Harris.
The Democratic Party nominee, like you’re over here trying to vote for, um, you know, uh, a third party candidate that really holds your values or whatever else, right? If somebody in a solidly blue state will commit to you that they’re gonna vote for your third party candidate of your choice
Becky: mm-hmm.
Lea: In your red state, you’ll commit to voting for the, the democratic candidate.
Even though that doesn’t align with your values, you know, somewhere somebody is getting a vote. Because for third party politics, it’s really just about a threshold of needing to get above like a 4% mark in order for funding then to allow that third party system to even get in the running in a way that has any major impact.
Right. Okay. So there’s this whole strategy. Um, so I did a vote swap and I, well I did a vote swap ‘cause I thought it was brilliant, but also I voted third party consistently. I only once have voted for the Democratic nominee, and it was when Hillary was running and I was like angrily voting for her, but realizing the importance of it.
Right. And it, had there been something like this vote swap concept, I would’ve probably done it then. Um, but I voted for the, the Democratic socialist candidates, which were, um, Claudia and Haina. Mm-hmm. Um, out of New York and spacing. I’m like, were the, that was their names, right? I’m like, I was trying to remember their slogan.
Um, anyway, election day comes and goes and Nava saw my I vote sticker and she goes, oh. Did you vote for Kamala Harris? And I was like, oh shit, I didn’t talk about this. And I was like, I could in this moment lie and just be like, yep, fingers crossed. Like, you know, she’s gonna be our next president. I was feeling really hopeful.
Anyway, in that moment, I think a lot of us were. Mm-hmm. And I was like, no, I’m not gonna lie. And I was like, well, actually I did this other strategy. There’s a lot of different people that are running. I voted for these other two women. Our state in California, we have something called the Electoral Process.
And I’m like going into it, right? She’s at the time, like five, all she hears is You voted for Trump.
Becky: Ooh.
Lea: And I’m like, no, no, no, no, no, no. She’s like, but you, did you not want Kamala Harris to win? And I was like, no, I do want her to win. Then why didn’t you vote for her? And I’m like, because I was trying to use this strategy so that like, maybe next time there’s another election, we don’t just have this like choice of like, you know, somebody who’s gonna build more prisons anyway and whatever else.
And not to say that it was like, I, I’m not necessarily like the, you’re a choice of two evils person, but I, I, Kamala Harris would’ve been a wonderful and phenomenal president. And I wish that she was our president and she should have been. But I would’ve continued my activist work to continue to like, right?
Like for a lot of us in more radical spaces, like it’s about choosing the fighter. We can fight. Like Kamala Harris would’ve been the fighter that we could have fought against, right? So like, we would’ve fought to get her in office, but that we could then fight to hold her accountable to do X, y, z aspects of changes.
Whereas like having Trump as a president isn’t even a fight that you can fight. There’s like, not even an entry point, right?
Becky: Yeah.
Lea: Anyway, so I don’t know if that’s a very long-winded state way of saying like, sometimes, like, and she still, she’s like, my mom didn’t vote for Kaha, she wanted Trump, you know?
And I’m like, well,
Becky: what’s striking me is as you’re telling this about your child. I’m like, that’s probably the level of nuance that most adults can, can, like most adults can’t hold that nuance.
Lea: People were so upset at me. Yeah. They’re like, what? And I’m like, California still went blue. Like even if I didn’t vote,
Becky: yeah.
Lea: He would’ve won Ca California, you know?
Becky: But we’ve been so conditioned with this, like blue and red left and right, and, and, and the more we, that’s the like. Dysregulation getting captured by these systems that want to keep us in, in opposition, when life is so much more nuanced, like we’re being called into nuance.
And, and that’s where like bringing it back to, well, what can I do in this moment? Get hyperlocal and like Yeah. Have nuanced conversations with your neighbor. This is my new mantra. Like, I wanna be in community with people who love me and those who don’t, people who agree with me and those who don’t. And that means I’m necessarily going, probably gonna get triggered, you know?
Right. Like,
Lea: yeah.
Becky: I mean, but how are we ever gonna shift something if I can’t have a conversation with someone? Uh, like we have to have broad conversations and can I have a conversation with a neighbor who fundamentally believes that my queerness will end in me going to hell ca can I have that conversation?
Well, if I’m resourced, I can. And then what might come of that? You know what, either way I’m safe. I’m not going to hell. I can’t go somewhere. I don’t believe in.
Lea: Right. Right. I mean, there’s that. And also, I mean, I do, I do think that, um, yeah, I think once, once we are coming from a resource space, we can make those decisions for ourself.
And also, you know, Adrian Marie Brown talks about this, that she talks about our layers of. Of relation. And so she talks about, for example, that there is a very large section of her white family that believes that her as a biracial child shouldn’t even exist, right? Mm-hmm. And so she continues to stay in community with them, but mostly just via proximity to her mother.
And so her mother’s connection of relation to those family members, her sisters, her aunts, et cetera, is the way that Adrian then can stay, connect, Adrian and her sisters can then stay connected to this family, right? Mm-hmm. They aren’t, you know, canceling that entire side of the family. You’re dead to me, whatever else.
Yes, I’ll stay in relation to you, but I won’t be in the room with you. Mm-hmm. Right? And so I do think that it’s important to think about, well, what, what is my level of safety? Can I be in this room with this person and is, is going to my neighbor’s house, going to actually really, truly feel safe? And is there some benefit to me doing so?
Mm-hmm. Um, and if there isn’t, then my level of proximity will be, I’m gonna say hi from my, from my driveway, and I’m continuing to exist in their field of vision. But that is as far as it goes, right? Yep. Um, or you know, you notice, oh, it looks like they have a kid that comes to visit them that’s maybe a child like their child grown child who’s now a queer adult, right?
And so my proximity now maybe could be a little bit closer, or like, in what ways can my existence start to show up in a different way that will then support somebody else, right? Mm-hmm. Um.
Christina: Yeah.
Lea: Yeah.
Christina: Right now, so many of us are navigating this world without a roadmap. And it’s so interesting to hear you even reflect, like you, someone who is so well versed in this way of being, are still navigating in darkness here. Um, it’s just making me think like we’re all really being asked to get comfortable not knowing what’s ahead or like how to parse it out necessarily the right or wrong way.
And, um, in this whole conversation I’ve heard you just trying to reorient yourself towards a common ground that you share with people. And I think that’s such a, it’s such a beautiful goalpost for all of us. Mm-hmm.
Lea: Hmm.
Christina: Yeah, it’s making me think there’s, like, I, I live on a street where, up the street or maybe 12 or 13 houses and I, I grew up all over. My dad was a Marine and, um, for a while, and then he retired early and we kept moving. So I moved eight times before I went to college.
So I know people in Missouri, in the boot heel of Missouri where my dad was invited to KKK meetings and did not go, but like in the nineties. This is just to set the framework of like the people that I know and can love all across our continent. Um, California, North Carolina, Utah. Like we had Mormon missionaries coming to make friends with us and stuff.
So all of these people Yeah. In this beautiful melting pot that I know and know are all just here trying to do the right thing every day. Um, up the street, there is one house, one house on this street that had a Trump sign. And I live in a mostly liberal town, but there are, there are still, it’s, it’s varied.
But this part of Maine had more Kamala signs than Trump signs, I’ll say. Mm-hmm. Um, and I go for a walk in the woods with my dog or my kids, or myself, nearby, and I found his Trump sign in the woods and I picked it up and I brought it back to him.
Becky: Ooh.
Christina: I did do that. He has, he noticed, he’s also a retired marine and he has, let me borrow his lawnmower.
When I ran out of gas, he helped my husband re side the side of our house when there was a storm coming. So I got his Trump sign and I brought it back to him. We have different views. I don’t want to be the person that laughs at the house that shows openly a view that they have that is different than mine.
Lea: Mm-hmm.
Christina: Um, it’s tricky. Yeah. The reason, the reason he, I believe that he helped side our house is because he saw my dad had a Marine, um, um, sticker on the back of his truck when he was here once. And that was the way that he had an in to this house.
I just keep thinking like, can we, can we expand our view of things and pull back enough to see every human as someone who’s just trying to show up and do the right thing?
Yeah. But it is very tricky.
Lea: Yeah. I mean, I mean it’s the, it’s the pulling back into the curiosity.
Christina: Mm-hmm.
Lea: And I think then, you know, stepping into the next part, which is the braveness to express the curiosity.
Becky: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Christina: Yeah.
Becky: It’s the, it’s the not dismissing people because the sign they put in their yard and having the courage, if they say something that diminishes someone else’s humanity, can you lead with curiosity and mm-hmm.
Not to tell them they’re wrong. ‘cause no one ever changes their views by someone telling them they’re wrong. But a lot of people like, and I don’t know, this comes back to safety. What do you feel safe in your body to express? But I just know that, um, we all live in a, in a system that has been designed to keep us apart and to keep us in these fighting tropes.
Um. And so many people have been lied to for so long. So you know what was programmed into them? To put up that Trump sign, to believe in that ideology.
Christina: Mm-hmm.
Becky: Um, and if we can let in just a little bit of compassion and empathy to the extent we feel safe, I’m just curious on what might that birth, if we can actually mm-hmm.
Have conversations with, and it’s so hard and you have to start where you are and where you feel safe and start with a wave. But I’m always looking to, what can that build into, um, you know, are you gonna, yeah. Who are you gonna listen to? The person who dismisses you for your sign, or the person who brings your sign back and then, you know, is willing to get curious about you.
Mm-hmm.
Lea: Yeah. And I, I’m curious in this moment, like, what would it have felt like too when you brought the sign back to say you really like this guy? You know, or like,
Christina: yeah,
Lea: I think this is, I think this is yours. I dunno if somebody pulled it off, I wanted to bring it back, but what is it, what is it about him that you believe in?
Christina: Mm-hmm.
Lea: Because I think that’s like the next step of the bravery. And I think that for those of us who carry a level of privilege and, and maybe it doesn’t feel safe if it’s your neighbor. Right. But we’re all neighbors. And I think that, like speaking to the fact that, you know, it’s, we’re three white heteronormative presenting women, like sitting here in conversation.
Our safety is, is built in and baked into white supremacy in so many ways. And so I think that, um, there is, there is a bravery that is being asked of us by those that don’t look like us to step out of the next level of comfort and, and ask those, you know, in the curiosity, it isn’t sort of, I think sometimes when we say like, getting curious with people is just, you know, like allowing for a lot of the open space.
But I think it’s also the bravery of asking the questions that actually push a further conversation, right? Mm-hmm. So, like, you know, it’s like I’ve been on a walk and, like some, some old guy, some old white guy passing me with a Trump hat, you know, and he says like, oh, nice dog. And I’m like, oh, thanks. I like that jacket. You know, the hat’s gotta go though. You know, and he is like, oh, you know, have a good day.
And I’m like, you too.
Becky: Right before the election, I had my, uh, septic pumped and this guy shows up to pump my septic. And we went quickly to talk, talking to politics. I don’t know why. And he asked me what I liked about Kamala, and I said, I don’t, I like that she’s not him.
And then I said, well, you know, I, I’m worried about him because I’m married to a woman and his ideology very much wants to take away my marriage. And there was a pause before he jumped into. I have no idea if it changed anything for him. It’s not the point, but it, the point was, I, in that one moment, did feel brave enough to say something, but not from a, you are bad, but from a, this is really what I’m concerned about as a human, at a human level, and that’s what I’m interested in.
And, and I was activated. It took a lot of bravery. It’s not my neighbor, it’s someone I would probably only see once. So maybe I felt a little braver. Um,
but I felt so good because I felt, at least in that moment, we had a genuine connection.
I made him think about the billionaires a little bit. And so who knows what that shifted, but I just believe in the culmination of all those little things. If everyone’s doing just like one tiny brave thing, those things do add up.
Lea: Yeah.
And I think similarly too, like asking somebody, you know, what is it about him that you like, oh, I think that he’s gonna, he is gonna, uh, you know, bring jobs back to America or whatever, and then the next step is like, oh, but he doesn’t really have a track record of that, like, right.
And so it, and it is about needing to be educated in, in certain ways, because otherwise the bravery isn’t there. We’re not, we don’t feel like we’re on safe ground to actually have a conversation about things. Mm-hmm. And I think that the, the really polar, huge polarization that happens in this country happens because again, we’re taught not to talk about things, right?
Like in other spaces, people have robust conversations on the corner, on the coffee shop, whatever, about, oh, this guy, you know, fact, that politician, blah, blah, blah. And this person, you were listening to them, oh, did you hear third? She was talking about that. Right? Like, other places have these robust conversations about how a country is being navigated.
Right. And in America, we have this really distinct polarization where it’s become so distinct that we’re just like, let’s just not talk about it. Let’s just like keep the peace. And we go quietly to our voting booths and we just anonymously say who we think should be in charge. And that drives us apart.
We have so much more in common with one another. I mean, it’s been said over and over and over again, especially these last few years, that we have so much more in common with one another. We have in our differences. And if we can have the bravery to step into that and really question the other person, you know, I mean, my, yeah.
My sister is a huge Trump supporter and her big thing is on anti-abortion,
you know, and I’m like, yeah. And where is the regard for life? Like, like, tell me more about how this anti-abortion stance is really doing a good service to children. Right. And so, like, it’s a, it’s about picking a little bit more and a little bit more, and, and sometimes those conversations can wait and yeah, you can work on the siding of your house together, and you can maybe sit on your front porches at some point in the summer and watch fireworks or something, and, and you can really start to connect.
And that bond, that connection lays the framework for the curiosity to be heartfelt.
Christina: Totally.
Lea: And it lays the framework for the curiosity to, to possibly create change. Mm-hmm.
Christina: Yeah.
Lea: Um, you know, I don’t, I don’t think people Yeah. You know, or, or even if it doesn’t create the possibility for them to create change if it gets really bad.
They may open the door for you Totally. If your house is on fire, right?
Christina: Yeah. Yes.
Lea: And then it’s like, you know, and at some point, you know, there’s just some common ground and some common care and compassion there.
Christina: It felt in this gesture. And this was in, um, you know, I’m thinking, I don’t actually think, I think it was the first election because it was common for vp and we had a yard sign too.
So the second election, he did not have a Trump sign in his yard, which is interesting. Interesting. So this was, this was like in the beginning years of us living here. And I was just like, in all respects, creating this framework of like, you’ve noticed my dad’s military truck thing. That’s cool. I get that now that’s your in to me.
Yeah. So here’s your yard sign back. I, and I, it didn’t feel like an appropriate thing to ask, but as the groundwork gets laid, then the curiosity can come. That’s right. Yeah. And also to be, I’m glad that you asked that question too, because it’s making me actually refre reflect on. Why I wouldn’t have said something.
It didn’t feel, it was like pretty early on. His grandchildren, it’s a multi-generation house and his grandchildren have since come and like become friendly kind of with our kids. And I’m learning more and more that actually keeping a distance is, is probably the choice I’m gonna make. Mm-hmm. For many, many reasons.
Um, but, but I love even in that, that we can both proclaim our views and still be on the same street to share resources. Yeah. And it is more of like a lay in the groundwork for I plow your, you know, driveway in the winter when your husband has an emergency appendectomy and is a firefighter and can’t be there to help you.
That’s right. You know? Mm-hmm. That’s right. Those things are, are really like when you’re talking about the fabric and the framework that we’re building and the scaffolding, all these beautiful metaphors for like what weave together to hold it all in place. This is a neighbor that I could things Yeah, absolutely.
Mm-hmm. I could totally go to him and ask for something. And I have, um,
Lea: yeah.
Christina: So,
Lea: and true and truly, I mean like for the, for envisioning a world where people are safe and cared for in a truly liberatory way. I mean, that is outside of the politics that we have created in this country. Mm-hmm. And so I think that that’s really important to name as well, that sometimes doing exactly what you’re naming, um, is all that is necessary.
In this moment, moment. And that if we’re truly being honest, it isn’t necessarily about butting up against each other at all the times as I’m saying and saying, oh, what do you like about, you know, whatever it really is. If we are dreaming in a future that’s, that’s more free, that’s more equitable, that’s more liberatory.
It is likely outside of the politics we’ve created, and it is really, truly about who your neighbors are and who the community is and how you show up. Mm-hmm. Support the people teaching your young children or the firefighters or whoever else is like actually allowing life to happen in a, in an area.
Yeah. Yeah.
Christina: The music was recorded live as a part of the Sound Service at 3S Art Space in Portsmouth, New Hampshire in January, 2025, where musicians responded to the changing light in the room that reflected and refracted through Christina’s suspended artwork. Andrew Halchak, the composer of this piece is playing bass clarinet and Tomas Cruz and Katie Seiler are singing.
Also walking with you last time through the snow made me realize how fast of a clip I take. So all these voice memos I send you while I’m walking are like me like, okay and there was a really cute dog in the car that just passed me. But anyway, I’m like basically running, just walking. Speedy. Yeah.
