This week, we are joined by the dynamic and joyful spark of a human Kate Garmey who, as a self-proclaimed Chief Play Officer, claims one of her keywords as FROLIC. She seems to have already lived a million lives. On paper, she is a comedian, writer, community-builder, mother, and weaver of stories. This raw conversation beautifully encapsulates the way Kate’s life (like so many of us right now) has led to a distinct moment of upheaval and rebirth. Maybe we call it a homecoming. Whatever it is, Kate notices that JOY is the persistent reorienting force for her; so much so, she calls it a “state of being.”
We discuss joy as resilience, how fear and grief can enter the body and how essential it is to learn to let them out. We question the difference between joy and happiness and how privilege plays into it all. Kate is a standout example of someone who consciously chooses the inner path despite living in a world that is so externally-focused. She was quite literally gutted, a testament to the age old statement that “the body keeps the score,” but we’ll let Kate take you down that road….as she says, “that’s what we call a ‘hook’ in the business.”
We recommend checking out The Joyfire Project and listening to the incomparable Adrienne Maree Brown creating joyful songs while making tea.
If you want to learn more about Christina and Becky’s work outside of this podcast, check out our websites and Substacks. Thank you for being here!
Episode Transcript
Christina: This is so great. It’s so beautiful. Um, it’s, yeah. Isn’t it just like so freeing that we can just flow? And I also love that, um, that Kate also identified how nourishing it is to have you be this grounding presence with the meditation at the beginning. Um, it’s so lovely. Uh. And it’s you. It’s you like singing your song, you know?
I love it so much. Okay. I love you. I, it’s starting to snow. It’s like so beautiful, but like a little bit of beautiful falling, gentle snow that is covering my hair. But other than that, it’s just lovely and it’s not gonna accumulate. I just feel like I’m walking through Narnia or something. Um, life is so, so magical. I just, I feel so, um, awake.
Becky: Welcome to Noticing: A Podcast About Nothing And Everything At The Same Time. You are in for a treat. This week we are joined by the dynamic and joyful spark of a human being. Kate Garmey. Who as a self-proclaimed Chief Play Officer, claims one of her favorite keywords as frolic. In this raw conversation, we talk about a lot of things.
We talk about homecoming. We talk about guts, both metaphorical and literal. We talk about joy as resistance, and we question the difference between joy and happiness. And we laughed a lot. So I really hope you enjoy.
Christina: It is Christina and I’m wearing eyeliner because today feels like a party because we have, we have um, our good friend Kate Garmey here, and Becky tasks me with introductions for people. So, um, I don’t prepare at all ‘cause I like to really throw from the hip. And Kate Garmey is someone that I have known now for probably lifetimes, certainly in the flesh
one year, maybe a little more than a year. Um I walked into a dinner party of, I’ll say a generation of above me, women identifying writers. Kate was in there and I walked in and I was just like, who is this? Who is this? Like Sparky magnetic, bright, um. Uh, tenacious, bold human being standing in front of me that I’ve never met before.
Proceeded to then talk to her and basically only her all night long. And, then left. And I think you’ll have to correct me after I say this, Kate, but like, let me finish my spiel about you. But I think that I sent you an email or you sent No, I think you sent me an email saying like, we both live in the same town
I can’t even believe that. That’s so exciting. And then I just proceeded to write one of the most authentic and bold and real messages and was like, this is just the beginning for us. ‘cause they just knew it. So I find Kate to be just this completely, sparky, Sparky’s the best word I can come up with, human being.
The more that I find out about you, Kate, the more that I’m interested to find out more because you seem to have just like. So much in you and in your life that you’ve experienced. And you’ll be like, oh, when I was backpacking through Spain and I met this Catholic nun, could I tell you that story? And I’m like, oh my God.
So she holds Kate Garmey holds multitudes. And I I’m so excited to have her on here. She’s also one of the funniest people I know. And yeah, that would be my Lucy goosey intro to this beautiful human being that I’m seeing on my screen now.
Kate: Well, that is a beautiful introduction. Thank you so much, Christina.
This love story is quite reciprocal because Yes, I remember our first meet and greet too. And uh, I believe I sent the first email, and it’s true. Your response was so, something I’ve never received before. There’s the before times. And I think I was really sensitive going into that dinner, to be honest, because I’ve just had moved back to Maine, you know, having left a city and my identity, the quick identifiers of a career, a thing I was doing and building.
So I was in a really raw space and that was what was even more incredible to me, to meet you at that time and have you respond to it. ‘cause I didn’t have the keywords. I didn’t know how to describe myself at that time. So I think that’s an absolutely beautiful introduction. I’m very grateful to have someone who sees me like this and in my life as a friend.
And I think, . Sparky. Let’s do it. Let’s, I love it. You, I, so it’s all I can doy, it’s all I can do not to do some jazz hands right now. Are you feeling that too? Are you feeling that? I’m so goofy and so out there , and, in many ways, like a little, like part golden retriever, you know, like, come on with a lot of energy.
It’s genuine, but sometimes you just don’t want me to drool on your lap. Like, you know, it’s like, it’s, it’s good and it’s kind of got its own limitations. It’s not for everyone. We’ll put it that way. Hmm. But I, I love that Christina saw it even deeper into me, maybe to a place I didn’t quite see for myself.
And I think it’s really interesting and not nothing that this introduction does not say where I’ve worked or what I’ve done or where I’ve studied or any of those things because I’m in a very intentional remaking phase of my life. It doesn’t mean those things are gone, they’re just not the things I lead with.
And it means a lot that I am here now having a conversation that I’ve drawn in and starts from that place. And I think that a big piece of what this year since I’ve known Christina has been, was of first I was white knuckling, like the release of some of those pieces of my ego. That is a really hard, that’s a tight grasp.
Christina: Mm-hmm.
Kate: Um. But it does allow for room to fill up with different things and certainly different people. And I am just so grateful. Becky, I’ve only recently gotten to know you, but this is again, just a beginning. I listened to you. Obviously you’re pretty big time in my world. Um, but I am very grateful, to have such genuine and brilliant people in my life, who are so supportive and so interesting.
So yeah, when you said, let’s chat, I’m here for it. What are we talking about? Let’s go.
Becky: I have a, so I have a calling if, if that’s okay. Yeah. If no one has a strong preference.
But when you were talking about the, the relationship with the CV version of you. It flashed me back so quickly to when I first moved to New York City and yes, the first question everyone asked me was, what do you do? You know, what do you do? What do you do? And it was really uncomfortable for me when I first moved there.
But after, almost a decade living there, I kind of conformed myself to that worldview. So it really struck a chord with me when you said that about, leaving this identity of what you did and what you did is, so like, I’ve only scratched the surface and I’m mind blown. Like you’re kind of in this, from my perspective, what I’ve seen is you’re, you’re moving out of that way of being and into a new way of being.
And I’m really curious to the extent that you feel comfortable talking about that, like how that lived in you. And, and the reason I, I kind of wanna start here is because we’ve talked a lot about you know, how are we meeting this moment? And as I think about what this moment is. It’s not about this moment, it’s about systems that haven’t been sustainable or supporting a large portion of the population are starting to crumble.
And so I’m curious, like to me it speaks to those systems and paradigms crumbling within you. Mm-hmm. And what is that lived experience?
Kate: I think that’s a really thoughtful framing and question. And I think, I think it’s something I’m still in the process of living through some. Mm-hmm. I’m still trying to understand. I think I feel less fear about what’s happening, and I would say that. Christina, when you said what we’re doing here is trying to figure out how we individually meet the moment.
There’s been sort of a convergence here for me, which is, really having to get to my essence first. Very reluctantly. This was against my, against my will to certain not that sounds very dramatic, but I am dramatic. So that’s appropriate. I just mean I didn’t intend to do a hard stop on working. I have paused my life.
To give some context to what you’re saying, Becky. Mm-hmm. Um, pause my working life to support and fill in important needs within my family. So my working life is working to, um, you know, in the home, but it relates to a whole lot of things and caregiving and supporting. Just the needs of, of what’s at hand.
It’s very immediate. It isn’t as clear. It’s very important work. It’s not as clear as you see a CV building. This is what my next promotion is. Well, maybe I’ll get to leave the role of Chief Poop Officer. Wouldn’t that be sweet? But I don’t think anyone’s hiring. So I’m in this role for a long time. Um, but I’m just saying that there’s, a piece of me that, you know, I’ve always said, oh gosh, like this is not a good look for me not working.
I have a very active mind. Maybe that’s a beautiful little euphemism or something. Um, way of framing it is going a million miles a minute, this little ticker tape in my head. And I connect and collect ideas. I mean, my, my, it’s, it’s my pulse. My, like, my love language is ideation, right? So when I am outside of a place to plug that in.
That’s a lot of activity in my head. And if it’s not directed, where’s that gonna go? And so I had some real struggles with like, feeling a worth. ‘cause I associate that with income, I associate with the investments I’ve made in my own education and the things that I’ve built. And so there’s a real, I I knew this was the call.
I knew that I was supposed to do this at this moment. But it was a really difficult transition. And then to, to Christina’s point, and probably not by accident, she mentioned the time we met, I was very timid going to that because I didn’t have the way into that party to say who I am. But then it forces an even harder question, which is like, well then who am I?
Like what the, that, whoa. Do not entertain that alone without, um, uh, yeah, that took, that required. I, I, I mean, you can also channel through a question like that by binge, binge watching like The Pit or something like that. And just, just, I’m not gonna watch, I’m not going there. Mm-hmm. And I, I, I have a lot of ways to keep busy and things, but I think the combination of that plus silence, I came to a town my, like a smaller place, less distraction, less of the social community I had left behind.
And so I kind of like these conditions were ripe for me to not only be faced with a question, but have the opportunity to listen and look at the answer. Mm-hmm. And that was a really hard time. But gosh, am I grateful that I, I stuck with it, because I think it has helped me understand and look at a response that gives me a lot more confidence.
And I, and now I know how to see it, I recognize it and other people too, and I don’t blame them one second for it. And I know what a comfort it is, and I know how scary it is to think of letting go of that. But I think the second part of this that’s about me internally and sort of the shift I’ve been experiencing, but I think there’s another piece of this, which is, how do you show up or how do you, you know, what can you offer?
And I do believe that if you can tap into the, to the essence, to the pieces of you that are most intrinsically anchored and rooted there and the, and the pieces that, that fuel you, all these things are important.
I think there’s so many important ways that people are trying to do something and the worst thing we could do is not try. And I think that there’s such paralysis about, am I doing enough? And the answer is do something. And that’s where it starts. And that is very important. And I think that one of the things that people might get hung up on is, is what I have to offer enough.
This is a question that ties so closely to this question about identity and ego and how are we associating who has something to give and who doesn’t? And is there really a space and a place for things that might fall out of what we look at as conventional or, useful. And I’ve spent in corporate and entrepreneurship and the environments with which I naturally gravitate, many of which are very male dominated places.
If it’s adventure sports or comedy or tech. I’m always the salmon swimming upstream. If I had an inspirational poster behind my desk, it’s a bunch of fricking salmon trying to breathe. And I would say there’s a better vision one could have for herself. I would say don’t start there.
You know, I think maybe we could dream a little bigger. And now I’m like, what does it look like to go with a flow? Like really? And if I really tap into that, this is a very Kate answer. We are going down, we are opening rabbit holes. I’m taking you down tributaries. We’re mixing metaphors. We’re just gonna do all of that here.
But the point is, what is the point, Kate? Is there one? There is, there’s an easier way. And when you tap into who you are or get closer to looking, like, turning over that rock, then it becomes a lot easier to understand where your current is. And that allows you to give more with less energy in a way that doesn’t strip you of yours and can kind of help move things forward.
And that’s, that’s, that’s what I’m starting to understand about how I might be able to plug in, in this moment. Mm-hmm. I didn’t give you an answer of what that is yet though. Mm-hmm. But I’m thinking about it.
Becky: Yeah. I think it’s almost better that you don’t have an answer, you know?
Mm-hmm. Like showing what it looks like to be in process, because so many of us are in process and, it’s the antithesis of the CV version of society. Where you can be, you know, put into a couple bullet points
Kate: yeah. And I, I would say, just to build on that idea, nothing puts you in a box faster than having a child.
Woo. I get to be a mom and I love it. Do not get me wrong. I’ve always wanted this job. I really have. And I can say that with like, wholeheartedly, that’s the thing that I, that I am, I’ve known, but that no one told me that , that is what you become, like, that’s how people expect to see you. And I think the combination of not having those CV points and then your access points are the mom groups that you’re associated with or funnel to is a, it could be a double whammy in particular for women.
Um, and, I found myself in that, in that. So it’s even, I know Christina’s eyes just went, whoop.
Christina: Yeah. Um, I relate to this and also I, I think for you, one of the things I kept here, like while you were talking, I was thinking, you have chosen the path inward. I’ve watched you do this, I’ve watched you choose the path inward.
So you’re saying you left the city, Chicago and now, and then you came to a small town where you grew up and everything got quiet and then it was like, oh shit. I have the choice to now reckon with myself, meaning meet myself in quiet. Which is really scary. And Kate, a lot of people choose not to do that.
Yeah. They just choose to like fill their lives with lots of other things. But what you have done and why I’m so excited to talk to you right now. You have chosen the path inward and you’ve chosen to let your kids teach you something about yourself.
You’ve chosen to allow them to mirror back to you things that maybe you would like to work on. I know this because I chose this path to
Kate: mm-hmm.
Christina: Mm-hmm. And I just, I just wanna highlight that to you, that, while you may not have a really bulky CV right now, who cares? Because what you are doing is you’re turning inward, which is having a deeper relationship with yourself.
And I cannot wait to watch how many other people follow your lead, because you do it with such integrity and spark. Mm-hmm. And a sense of lightness and buoyancy and humor. So you make it possible and I know it’s not an easy path, but it is, I believe it is the most worthwhile path, you know?
Yeah,
Becky: something you said that really struck me, it almost sounded like kind of a throwaway comment, but it really like made me stand up is you said, who like, no one should do this alone.
And I, I just wanted to like pause on that for a second and tease it out, because you’re absolutely right and this keeps coming up so much into my conscious awareness is. These systems that are crumbling want us to, they’re, it’s very individualists, right? It’s like that’s what we’re taught. But we’re metabolizing.
Sure you’re metabolizing your own story and your own lineage, and you’re metabolizing the systems around you that have constructed, that are that’s the water and the air that you’ve been living in. And that to me is not, I think it’s a mistake for people to think this is all mine to metabolize.
And I think in our culture, it’s very much like you go to therapy. Well, therapy is wonderful. I love therapy. You go one-on-one therapy. You know, you, you journal. I love journaling. It’s one-on-one. And I think there’s. It’s really striking me, especially lately and especially being, it’s like yelling at me, being in this community, this, this small intimate group that Christina has gathered that we’re both in.
It’s, it’s like the neon sign that I see in every waking moment is like, this work is meant to be done together.
Kate: Hell yes. I dunno what else to say, uh, that. That, uh, I appreciate you calling that out. Also, do you wanna talk about therapy? ‘cause I know a lot about it. It’s, um,
Becky: I love therapy. We can talk
Kate: about therapy.
It’s like a core strength of mine. Do you know how good I am at talking? Do you know how great it is when I get to be the reliable narrator to what’s in my brain?
Um, I mean that, I’m joking and I’m saying it tongue in cheek, but I think what you’re getting, I mean, if you’re good at talking and you’ve been told a bunch of stories and you really believe them is so true. The ones that, that live inside of you, that what comes out is already coming out through a, a such a filtered lens that the accounta you.
But there’s, there’s so much to say. I think it is very helpful. I’ve been engaged in lots of different, therapy. But I think I, I’ve. This idea of what we hold in our bodies, we’re supposed, we tell hold in our minds is, is very interesting to me at this stage in the game, particularly if we’re really good, smooth talkers. And when you say that, it’s meant to be held in community or that there’s an opportunity for that to be shared, I think that’s exactly it. And having the right people around you, as you break down some of these beliefs about yourself to help hold them and see them, reflect them back, talk you through it.
There’s a grieving process that goes through Yes. You go through when you, when you have to, say goodbye to some stories that you’ve been told or that you know about yourself, and those are very familiar and they feel like part of you and it does make you question a lot of things. Mm-hmm. Um, and as you’re, as you’re thinking through your own version and your own experience.
And your reality, right? Mm-hmm.
Becky: Mm-hmm. That word, grief, like that you’re bringing in grief is so such important work and we’re meant to be held in our grief. Like it’s totally destabilizing, you know, you’re becoming a totally different version of yourself. So many of us are reckoning with a reality of the country and the world that we were not taught.
So it’s, it’s like destabilizing all of our beliefs about reality. So it’s too much to hold. It’s too much for one person to hold. And yet I always come back to Rumi of the, you know, the crack is where the light comes in. You know, we’re being cracked open, but who’s there to hold us, you know, if we’re falling on the floor, we need people to hold us so that we don’t, so that we crack open without
cracking completely apart.
Kate: Mm-hmm.
Christina: Yeah. We crack open in someone’s hands.
Becky: Hmm.
Kate: Yeah, I think it, that, that destabilizing factor that you just brought up, Becky, like that really, that really resonates because when you’re internally kind of, that crack exists, you’re starting to let in a new source of, like a new just version of yourself, right?
Mm-hmm. Um, and then the world around you seems to be changing overnight. It’s, you know, not this level. What’s happening in our country and what’s happening in, in the world right now is immense grief and fear. And there’s a lot that is not new about it. But the, the scale with which we’re experiencing it, the frequency and the feeling that some people, when you’re watching this, the, the fire hose of, of, of stories,
the idea that you have community to lean on, to plug in with, to sit with, to, remind each other that we are still here. That we are alive and that we. Still have our humanity. You could see it when you look at someone else in the way in which you’re interacting with them.
It’s this feet on the ground. Where do we go? What do we do? Let alone the i, you know, sharing. But the holding that part that you referenced really resonates for me.
Christina: I’m interested in if, in Kate, you talking about, the way that information lands in your body and not your brain, because I, I think a lot of people are meeting this moment, in many different ways, but I see a lot of people, feeling their way through it versus thinking their way through it.
So I’m wondering if, you can speak a little bit to how you have turned to the knowledge that your body holds. And the messaging that your body shares with you versus the way your mind can talk it out.
Kate: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, absolutely. I think that’s a important distinction and maybe why I was talking about like, at a certain point, therapy is great until you’re crippled with pain.
Christina: That’s what I mean.
Kate: And you find yourself in the er, yeah. That’s what we call a hook in the business. An er. What? Tell me more. Happy to. Okay. So, um, I have been there a lot of times, for different things, but the biggest recurring issue for me happened after COVID, and like so many intense moment of stress, two babies under two.
In the city experiencing all that we all experienced in different ways, but I didn’t understand how deeply that was lodging. This is not a COVID related illness I’m referencing. It’s just that brought on by the intensity of the, like the rate at which. I would have to start experiencing and did new forms of fear and grief simultaneously, that I didn’t have a way out for.
I was truly, when we talk about there’s difference between going inward and then being locked in your house, two different things, not the same. Uh, and I didn’t have the, you know, none of us did, but the, the same infrastructure in place and the fast forward, this, this became a condition uh, diverticulitis.
The Itis as we call it in my family. It’s not fun. Do not recommend zero stars, but it is a gastro issue that can relate in. You have to go to the, uh, hospital because they have to do a scan and then you get on medication. There’s really, really strong antibiotics and try and fight off this infection so you don’t get a perforation and an emergency surgery.
So I figured out how to do this dance with this disease for a long enough time, like five years or so. And then the abouts in the recent history since Christina’s known me, have come, started coming on so fast and furious that I didn’t have a lot of lead time to manage them. And the point is that this November, which happened to be around the same, you know, in the midst of a lot of this kind of healing I’ve been trying to do, it sort of mandated a, a pretty massive abdominal surgery to remove, part of my colon.
So I had a surgery for that. And then I started thinking, huh, could this be related to stress? And, um you know. Uh, certainly I believe in western medicine. I’m so glad that this happened. But the mind body connection is very, very strong and is particularly strong in me, in lots of different ways.
I have strong basal vagal response. I have great stories of workplace dinners where I’ve fallen down the stairs in Chica. I’m so dramatic. I told you you’re gonna get some because I, I was at a work dinner. This is so great. And it, and then I went and the bathroom was upstairs.
So I go upstairs and I’m coming down. I, whoa, this is kind of a woozy feeling and I didn’t even drink it wasn’t that. And the next thing I know, tumble, tumble, tumble loudest sound they’ve ever heard in the restaurant. And I am splat out at the bottom of the stairs and my boss has to call. 9 1 1. Good.
Taken away from the work dinner in an ambulance. And the only part I can remember is there was a very cute EMTI was single at this time, and I puked on his shoes yeah, it didn’t go great. But my point is, there was a point to that, which is just I, that was one time I went to the ER for, for issues related to stress.
Oh my god, I love you so much.
So I’ve worn, I’ve worn heart monitors for that stuff. I have done all sorts of tests. And then I think that, um, I think that this is really the first time in my life that I’m trying to like, look at this stuff more holistically about what am I, how are my thoughts feeding into what my body, experiences.
Yeah. And. And how, how am I thinking about letting go of the things that I’m holding? And I think that that is in my body, and I also think that it is with the world around us in the news, how are we finding a way for us to really metabolize it? That does not mean ignore it. That does not mean let it bounce off of you to protect yourself.
To let it in, but also to let it out.
And I think that’s, that, that feedback loop has been a little broken for me. It goes in it, I just haven’t had a way to really let it out.
Christina: And so you’ve literally had like a part of you removed
Kate: Yes.
Christina: And diverticulitis, I will say too, ‘cause I learned about it through you. And maybe the one time I Googled, you’re usually my Googling friend. We, we jokingly call you, Hermione. I think you coined that yourself actually. You’re like the Hermione of the group.
But, but I looked it up and it’s usually something that happens to like much older folks or,
Kate: yeah. I don’t fit the profile.
Christina: You really don’t fit the profile. But it’s really cool to see you. Experiencing something like that. Enough times like the universe, this is what I believe. It comes back around.
If you don’t get the message the first time, it’s like, oh wait, it’s just gonna get worse. Mm-hmm. We’re gonna come back around. Yeah. Oh, you didn’t hear us that time. So here you go. You gotta get it removed now. Yeah. And then instead of just deciding, well, it’s removed so that issue is gone.
Kate: Yes,
Christina: you are, you’re doing, you even referenced like all these modes of healing that you’re, you’re seeking therapy being one of them and stuff, but it’s, it’s really cool because you’re, you, I think you’re learning, I see you learning that.
It just, like Becky said, it’s not just yours to hold. I, I see you as someone who is, is like a cycle breaker. And there are a lot of people right now in souls and bodies that are cycle breakers. That, if you think of it that way. They like chose to come here now in this pressure cooker of a time because they’re able to do it.
And I see you as this Sparky Spark Mc Sparkers sin, who’s ready to do it?
Kate: We’re gonna change my LinkedIn immediately. There’s the title we’ve been looking for, Sparky Spark Mc Sparkers Sin When you introduce me Next time. Thank you. I love it. I’m also like, let’s have, you know, I didn’t expect to use the word colectomy on this podcast and I’m wondering if people are going to now you can’t really stop thinking about colon, which is a really gross thing that I should never have brought up.
And now I understand why Kate Middleton always talks about like abdominal surgery. That would’ve sounded much better in in post we can say abdominal surgery. Just kidding. It is what it is, but I just mean it’s raw. It’s real. It’s kind of gross. But I also was gutted. It was gutted this year. Gutted.
Literally everything, everything that’s going on around me converged at the same time in the world. And I think that when you talk about a targeted moment, what goes around and really look at it, maybe the, the pieces were in place, there’s a lot of privilege I feel. And having time, like time is a luxury.
So many people are so busy, one foot in front of the other surviving, and I feel lucky and aware of the fact that I have this moment in time where things have come together, that I have time, I have time to look at this, I’m doing the other things. But I’m quite aware that, that alone is a gift and it’s a waste if I don’t use it.
And I feel an obligation to do it. Uh, and maybe there’s something in there that I can not only understand how I can best plug in better. Or, uh, a a but, and also help other people. I really feel a, a need to do that, to help them tap in as well to what it is they have to offer and believe that they do.
Christina: Hmm. I I would also remind you that there is something inside of you in a deep place that you probably didn’t acknowledge, that knew that you needed, like you have time and you have resources and community because you moved yourself. To that place. Mm-hmm.
Kate: Yes.
Christina: That was,
Kate: I joke that I was like, you know, my move to Maine was the only five year plan.
I successfully executed. Like I knew that vision board strong. I lo, I mean, Chicago’s an amazing city, all the love in the world. And I think there’s so many great places, but I, for me, coming back to where I am and where I wanted to have my kids grow up and the, access to nature and family was such a strong gravitational pull.
I couldn’t, I thought about it all the time. It was such a known thing in my body. And moving here I thought was gonna be at the cost of social and friends and things. But I was okay with that because I knew it was right. And much to my delight, I was wrong about that in the best way possible.
I’ve made wonderful connections with people who are really, they’ve chosen the place. And they chose a place where it’s easier to feel in many ways, a city, as we talked about, Becky, it can condition you to be a certain way. Mm-hmm. And wear a certain type of armor and show up and know the words and do the thing that’s gonna get to the next thing and move at a pace.
And I think that, you know, there is a benefit in many ways too, to being in a slower place where people are you can be a little bit, maybe more intentional, but really making that choice to live in a place they feel most alive in.
Becky: Mm-hmm. That’s the, that is the essential point is where do you feel most alive?
It’s not that, you know, Maine is better than Chicago or better than New York City. It’s, it’s recognizing that pull within you and separating from the where should I live? You know, oh, I should live in a city because I’ll get better jobs but really honoring that pull within you, that is your right place,
Kate: that’s, uh, really, important distinction that, how personal it is.
Mm-hmm. Like, it’s different for everybody. Mm-hmm. It’s just, it was so clear to me that this is where I was meant to be and for that exact reason.
Christina: Hmm.
Kate: Mm-hmm.
Christina: So, Kate, I hear you saying that like you, all of the things that have been going on with you are helping you reframe the uplifting of stories of others.
I think that’s what you just, you just articulated a little bit before, so this feels like a really natural way to kind of like bridge into, okay, your guts got taken out and you’re with your family in Maine. So where do you find yourself now?
And I know you’re still on this healing journey. It’s a never ending beautiful journey that we all are so lucky to experience as we evolve in our time here. So that never goes away and that will continue for you and for me and for all of us. But how is, how has that work that you’ve been doing, that self-reflection, how has that sort of looped you back to the things that really stuck from your quote unquote professional career or the things
that you love to do? Mm. I know you’re a writer. You do comedy, you do these things. So how has the more self-reflective and self-realized and and deeper listening part played into how you are showing up now?
Kate: Mm-hmm.
Christina: End of question.
Kate: There’s so many parts. Can I remember it all? I really tried. that ticker of tape of mine was going, so I’m gonna do my best and if I’ve missed some, do who cares?
Lemme know.
Christina: Take the baby, whatever.
Kate: Yeah. Um, I do think, I think you get to a certain point of doing something and you, you know who you are. You say, I’m this kind of person. It’s actually kind of awesome to, in that way, stop and then check in and be like, am I that person? And see what emerges.
I, I’d be like, one of my key words is frolic. Like I Great word. Right. Frolic. Fun to say, but also really feels genuine to who I am, like playful. but this idea of being at home and being the chief play officer has really brought that to the surface.
Like, this is it. I’m orienting towards game and finding the game and playing and all of those things are still really there. And the things that I was doing before when I was working, for money, I just, was, you know, a lot of coaching, assisting other people in helping to fan their flame, help fed them.
Reconnect to themselves through this, their own leadership stories or their own sense of humor, or their own way of seeing the world, their unique view of it, and giving them the nudge to go forward in that direction. And I was doing that with executives. I was, kind of doing that individually helping organizations and leaders.
I was doing teaching and like these kinds of things and academic institutions like helping to spark ideas and get people, spark creativity. And I hadn’t really, when you take time away like that, through thread, that idea of all these different things, I’ve had lots of different iterations of me, lots of different things that I’ve done in, in my decades of experimentations.
But that is a real consistent piece of this. And so I, I think I’m following your question when I say like, yeah, I, it helped me hone in on the, on the truth of the theme, that that is really core to who I am and what I wanna do and what energizes me. And that part hasn’t gone away. It’s found a new, it’s like naturally, like if you stop water in one place, it’s gonna find its way, another way.
Yeah. Like, this is what’s happening for me and it’s showing up in a different area, but it’s the same idea. It’s the same sort of like, you know, does that
Christina: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Kate: Address the question. I
Christina: Yes, it does. I think, I think too, I was thinking like sometimes when you have some real, deep awakening of self.
Like self with a capital S Self, Soul, Self. The other stuff that was more artificial to you falls away because it’s asking to let go, to be let go. And so I’m wondering where you are, and maybe you don’t know, but like what still sticks from wherever you were before this awakening of self?
Like what I hear you talking about story. I know writing is sort of just ‘cause I know you mm-hmm. Writing is really, still sticking. Like what feels like it’s in that like core of Kate. That then like reaches forward into the great beyond,
Kate: reaches forward into the great beyond.
Becky: I feel like what I’m hearing in that question, Christina is and correct me if I’m wrong, but it’s like there’s not like a fake self before and a real self now, but it’s like, what are the through lines and, and maybe even how are you holding those old, older parts of you in a new way and finding new ways to, to still have that.
‘cause it’s not like you would, you wouldn’t be that successful and have such a robust CV if you were doing things that were so out of alignment. But, so it’s not about like the, the what you were doing, but maybe doing it in different environments or doing it with a, with new boundaries or new, attention to self.
Is, is that kind of
Kate: Oh, okay.
Becky: Know what I mean? So it’s not like the corporate version of you is inauthentic and you wanna throw that out with the bath water I don’t know. That’s, that’s kind of the essence of what I was hearing in the question. Christina, correct me if I’m wrong, but it’s, I guess it sparked my own as, you know, my own awakening.
It feels like a return. It’s not a, a transformation into someone different. It’s, it’s really like connecting the dots of my life in this much more excited and illuminated way. Whereas now, like I was talking to Tarra last night and getting really excited about some of the skills that I had in that corporate life where maybe it, it wasn’t the fullest version of myself, but.
There were sparks, you know, and it now, it’s almost like there’s a flashlight going through my life and finding these moments of it’s almost like picking up little pieces of me and bringing them all back into a new, more whole version of me. But it’s not creating something new. It’s like collecting pieces of the past.
That’s the, that’s kind of what I was hearing in your question, but, um, yeah, pick up wherever, whatever resonates. Kate.
Kate: I mean, I love listening to you. I’m not sure. I, I, maybe it’s because I’m so in it. This is beautiful picking up pieces of the past. Yes. I love that. So, and, and also, are you asking me like who I am?
Becky: No. But so that que even that question, right? Who am I? I just, this is the, you know, queer non-binary part of me that’s like, I don’t, are these boxes helpful? You know, like the, even these questions of who am I? Do I need to put that in a, in a category, in a box?
Kate: Yeah. Well that’s what I was hoping we could avoid for panic attack purposes.
I’m joking, but I just, because that’s so that’s, that’s a hard, but that’s not the nature of both of those questions that sort of, you asked about a through thread that reaches back and reaches forward, to where I wanna be and where I wanna go. And I think that there is a lightness to it. I think that I have always been good at the reframe, not in a way that’s delusional or avoidant of the reality, but in anchoring towards
levity. And I think that that has been a through thread in my work in design, design thinking. How can you look at this challenge and reframe it and use those constraints to your advantage? Like how does that help you get even more creative and dig in? And I’ve been looking at creativity through this process and the ways in which I would’ve been telling someone else to go about looking at this and how do you play, how do you still find joy and how do you still move forward in and despite the circumstances?
And I think that this idea of tapping into and finding joy in myself in others, and connecting, in a very playful way, has, has certainly been absolutely there from the beginning it’s been stripped down to a little bit more of a pure form of it. I mean, I’m truly like taking my kids on magic and mystery walks and so I get to actually experience that piece of it pretty fully, this idea that I want to be of service, and help and, plug in, in community.
Becky: We’ve now said joy so many times. Yes. And, and I really, I wanna pull that out. And this was a side text conversation before this, this talk about very loosely about the difference between joy and happiness and, and
just being around you has probably started to, plant seeds in my big beautiful neurodivergent brain and looking, so I’ve naturally been like seeing patterns of joy and, and holding this question of like, what is joy? And can you have joy without happiness? Can you have joy with sorrow? What is the full expression of joy, look and feel like?
And yesterday I was watching, parts of this SAG awards and there was this, this musical performance that was kind of inspired by the movie sinners. And the joy was just emanating and, um.
I’ve always found this like when you look to the most, the darkest places, and I do tend to look in the darkest places, it’s kind of my nature. Every time I do, once I’m able to feel and metabolize and alchemize the darkness and the sorrow, I always find this deep well of joy, of like overflowing, exuberant, gotta sing it, gotta dance it joy.
And I feel that in you and in this time of becoming and of being literally physically being gutted, I always find and feel joy from you and I. And, it’s been a gift to me in the short time I’ve known you. And, yeah. So I’ll open the door to Joy and I know there’s plenty more that both of you have to say about it.
Kate: Yeah, I, um, I, I guess it feels like a very natural orientation. Like it is not, it, it feels authentic and I can say it’s authentic because I’ve been up against, like we all are, in this world right now. There’s, there’s a lot to, to, to call it, into question and to, and to deplete a sense of joy or to put it away, as not appropriate for, not now.
But it keeps popping back up, right? It’s just, it is, uh, very.
Becky: When is joy ever not appropriate?
Kate: Great, great question. I don’t know. Ask hr. Um,
I once got in trouble for wearing too much neon green. I was called into HR before for my first job. I was 22. It was, yeah, I was, I had a very joyful closet. So I think there are dimmers that are out there, right? There’s people orientations towards dimming and igniting, and I am just full on in the ignition category of, trying to be around people who spark that and who, and who can see it as, as an important state of being.
Christina: You just so consciously reorient yourself that to it. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I, I do it too. Yeah,
Kate: absolutely.
Christina: It’s something that flows so naturally and abundantly out of you, Kate, that I mean there’s no you without joy
Becky: and the fact that you called it a state of being, you know, it’s not an emotion that, that you feel that moves through you.
It’s a state of being, which is something that we can consciously choose as you always, this is your language, Christina, of like reorient towards that state of being
as a practice.
Kate: Yeah. I I also think, so much of, I, I, we talk about the difference between, or you referenced the difference between happiness and joy, and I do think those are different. And I do think of joy as more. More visceral, like a, a spark that connects you back to your body. It’s a, it’s a feeling like you talked about, but what I loved about your description, Becky, is it even the deepest moments of grief, the joy is connected to that.
It’s part of the release and that goes back to what we said about living and letting things through your body, the fullness of it. And for me, I’m learning how to let things not stay in my body. Joy is a beautiful release, but it’s also part of the, regeneration. Like it’s a regenerative force for me.
I keep going back and forth with the sensitivity I feel.
With the privilege of my situation and the how that bumps up against this particular moment. I don’t think I’ve given enough to that aspect of it because I feel like so much of my story is maybe a deepening into myself, but afforded through privilege and that, that I’m not in fear and on the front lines in the same way as many Americans are and people in the world right now.
And so there’s almost a feeling of a, a, an extra responsibility, right? I am in both a position to show up and a position to use my voice on behalf of those that aren’t able to use their voice right now. Don’t feel safe to do this right now. And that is real. That is very real. And. I think that there’s a part of us that, and me in particular, that can feel in conflict with knowing where our gifts are and still question whether they’re appropriate for this moment.
And for someone like me who identifies very closely with joy, that does not, that feels so in many ways, incongruent. Incongruent. That’s a tricky word. I challenge you to say it. Mm-hmm. I’m not even gonna try again. But the point is, it’s at many ways seemingly at odds with the gravity of what we are up against, the intensity, the urgency, that taking space or taking time to like actually focus on this could be misconstrued very quickly or
But I would say that, that that’s perhaps why it’s worth looking into a little bit, and that there is a misunderstanding around that potentially. And that the way that I talk about joy. Is really, is joy as, resilience, as tapping into, it’s like joy as a precious natural resource that we are all contain, that should be protected and conserved.
And, and that it fuels us, right? Because it allows us, if you can tap into the things that give you joy, if you’re aware of how to replenish, if you’re aware of what you have to offer, you have so much more to give the connections. It can, it can sustain you, it can fuel resistance, it can, it can buoy you in times that are so dark, but most importantly, it connects you back to yourself.
So you remember you’re here, you remember your humanity, which is so essential as we look at our responsibilities, our opportunities, and our place within all of this. And the parts of this we own. The parts of this we can show up for. But I think there’s this moment calling for community for us to come together to not do this alone, to be given back something.
It’s not, it’s something we already have, but space and time to have it and hold it and share it and feel it in one another’s presence. It’s such a deepening and we are experiencing such extreme loneliness or separation from ourselves, from our bodies, from our spirit, as much as we are community. And I think of joy as is truly an accelerant.
A a fuel, a spark that is regenerative. It is essential, and it’s part of the human condition if we remember it. And I am amazed continuously at the power that it has to bring people into a better proximity with themselves and position to remember their capabilities. And so I believe that while it may seem like this is an extraneous piece to showing up to this moment, how powerful it could be to create something that allows us to feel everything that we’re feeling to acknowledge these feelings exist, to acknowledge the heaviness of the moment, but to have a celebration that we let it out and that we can maybe consciously create that.
Certainly remember that when it’s happening around us, that this is actually extremely important.
Becky: I, uh, I love you and I love everything that you just said, and I’m so grateful for you saying it. And exactly what you’re sharing is one of the reasons I even wanted to start having these conversations. The image that was coming to mind so strongly that we’ve talked about before, so I’m not surprised I had this image of bare soil.
Christina: Mm.
Becky: You know, we have talked about this metaphor of the garden cause what you were talking about and describing is like getting to the root.
Of what this moment is showing us. Mm-hmm. this moment, didn’t start with the election, the last presidential election. This, this moment didn’t start. Like where do you start? Even when we’re talking about this moment, where did it start?
Christina: Mm-hmm.
Becky: And what you’re talking about, and what I feel in my body when I listen to you talk is getting to the root of why this moment exists in the first place.
And when you talk about turning towards community, and
And we all have our different roles, right? So for me. What I feel when I feel into what is getting to the root look like for me, it’s, it’s very much been unearthing and pulling threads at what was here before, and really getting to the place of what has been happening in the systems, of power on this earth that has let this moment even be a reality.
It’s been pulling the threads and decolonizing my, my mind, so I can see this world clearly, and that’s my role in creating this new garden. Right? But that doesn’t have to be everyone’s, everyone’s role. But this work of getting to the root of what was here before. So that what we build next is not just a replication of harm.
It’s not just a replication of what came before I understand the, what I think I’m hearing is the feeling of some guilt. You know, that you do have the privilege. I feel it. So maybe I’m just projecting the guilt of like, I have this access to joy and there’s so many people who are being directly impacted.
And I mean, before we got on this call, I was feeling on my shoulders and in my body the weight of this world right now. And it’s so easy for me. What I have learned in myself is when I am feeling that, and for me, it shows up as the doom scrolling on Instagram, the looking at the same in, you know, it’s not even information, it’s, you know, it’s, um,
Christina: yeah.
Propaganda.
Becky: Yeah. Or just like, it’s rage and it’s righteous rage. The posts are important. The speaking out is important. All of those little things are important. I just notice in myself when I’m feeling that it’s like, oh, I’m in fix it mode.
Kate: Mm.
Becky: I, I am now taking on in my body the problems of the entire world and I am trying to fix it.
Why am I trying to fix it? I’m trying to fix it so it will go away so I don’t have to feel. Because it’s too big. Right. And I just know for me that when I start noticing those patterns come up, and then I feel the guilt of I’m not doing, it’s not even, I feel the guilt of I’m not doing enough.
Why am I feeling this guilt? Because it’s my problem to solve. I have to solve it all. And those things aren’t true. But that’s how I feel. So for me, my practice is to get real, real small and just feel like one tiny bit of it. But feel it fully. Yeah. And just like we’ve been talking about, feel it fully and then let it come out.
Let it come out in a generative conversation about this moment.
Kate: Yeah. I, I think it is. I very attractive to go numb. For a lot of people right now because it is so much pain. If you’re taking in the news feed, your, your scroll is like, I think it’s really important. We don’t, so what does that look like?
Becky: Well I think there’s a difference between taking in the feed, like even that language.
Yeah. Like we’re taking in what we’re being fed by who.
Kate: Yes.
Becky: That’s not understanding. Like we don’t develop understanding
Kate: for sure. And I’m not even talking at this point about the informational overload so much as I am the sensory switch off, the emotional switch off that we run. Look, we’re in a world of ai.
It’s here, we’re doing all the things. But I think this
showing up and allowing ourselves the feelings connects us to our humanity. It’s so essential right now that we don’t lose that piece or outsource or scroll over it. I think the more that we’re in being on our phones in general, like is it’s an untrustworthy resource to say the least as we talk about the information we’re obtaining. It could be what we, you know. A genre formerly known as journalism or, you know, social media.
Right. And so what I’m trying to make the distinction is not necessarily joy as a privilege, I, I would also say that I distinguish between joy and happiness to a degree. They could be correlated, you know, they, but they’re not necessarily mutually inclusive happiness feels to me more ephemeral.
It’s influenced by a lot of external factors and it might be about receiving. Mm-hmm. Like, and we are often talking about happiness. That’s, to me, like influencing Instagram. And like that is like who’s happy on social media. And I do think that there often looks like that’s at anchored in quite a bit
societal, socioeconomic or privilege, like depending on, you know, the lens with which you’re viewing this, but I, I’m talking about joy as more of a a deeper subtler or exuberant and loud. It depends on, on which version of this
state that’s very inward and it is more reciprocal than it is receiving, and it is connected to more basic elements of ourselves, our environment, and our humanity. And that is intrinsic in all of us. Our access points to it vary. Some people under the greatest odds have deep wells of it and ability to dip in and some, despite what the appearance of what they have, it might be very hard for them to access that really true sense of what it is.
But I believe we all have the capacity to cultivate it and to tap into it as a resource. And I’m very interested in creating more opportunities to surface it and to coach people into finding it I also think of it as resistance, right?
Mm-hmm. That you have a light, you have this inside of you, and it cannot be extinguished unless you allow it to.
And, and that’s powerful. Mm-hmm. You know, that’s powerful.
Becky: Yeah. It, what comes across to me is joy is connected to just being alive and the joy of, it’s the feeling of aliveness and
it isn’t impacted by external. Like that is like your, you can access that. What was coming up when I was pointing to the performance around the movie Sinners, which if you don’t know the movie Sinners, you probably missed why I even brought that up. But it was about, after World War I and the Deep South and its centers around, it’s a vampire movie, but it centers around this one night of just exuberant dance and joy.
When I start looking into, the, the darker parts of the reality of the past, I look to, you know, the times of, enslavement, chattel slavery and Jim Crow and like those dark places. And I find so much joy.
Christina: Hmm.
Becky: I find like this.
Full expression of joy. Like you were talking earlier about letting it go through and it being the grief, the sadness, the, the pain of seeing the world as it is when you, when you don. Feel it fully. And it’s not an the, it is whatever level you are capable of feeling and still feeling safe.
You have to feel safe to feel these feelings. So, you know, my capacity may be huge to feel large swaths of grief and pain, someone else, because of their life circumstances, because of the way they’re designed. It may be much smaller. But I think the point is to just whatever access you’re able to feel, feel it fully, feel it fully, and let it move through you.
And that’s where you access joy. Because I really think that joy and suffering are both. Just truths of life, you know? I mean, I come from a Buddhist lens where life is, suffering is the first noble truth in Buddhism. Well, I, I think on the other side of that, even if Buddhism doesn’t name it explicitly, although Thích Nhất Hạnh definitely does, is joy is the other side of that same coin.
So if you restrict one, you restrict the other.
Christina: Yes. I’m very captivated by this conversation you were having. This is getting at such a deep place of this question of joy. And what I’m hearing in what you’re saying, Kate, is that you feel like you would like to have your efforts be in service of joy.
Kate: Yes.
Christina: So that is a beautiful, we, we went all around and you got an answer to that question. Joy is the through line of your life. So there’s your elevator pitch, should you need it one day.
Kate: Thank you. Thank you. You hired,
Becky: put that on your LinkedIn,
Kate: you’re hired. Yeah. Hi.
Christina: Yes. Sparky Mc Sparkers in the, the service of joy.
The joy bringer, the service. Yeah.
Kate: Well, yeah,
Christina: I mean I just, um, that’s what I heard in you and I love this idea of joy and suffering being on two sides of a coin. And what I keep thinking, ‘cause this is why we are having this conversation in so many different iterations with people because we all feel that crippling guilt of the privilege of feeling joyful.
And I, for one, have an abundance of joy. Always have, my needs are met. I acknowledge that and I refuse to let the guilt of the privilege of that thing steer my path, because what I want to do, you said it yourself, Kate, that your thoughts matter, like how you think of things. You said this at the very beginning of our conversation.
If I let that take up too much space in my thoughts, then I’m actually, I believe I’m continuing the life. I’m, I’m continuing what I see as, a sad result where not everyone has access to joy. So what I love in these conversations is that we get to choose how we think about things and speak about things.
And I want to seed a world where joy is the baseline because everyone has their needs met. And you know, if we’re using this garden, we keep talking about the garden a lot. And what seeds are we planting in this bare soil? What do we want to take root? And for me, joy is like the ground beneath our feet.
I want it to be the ground beneath everybody’s feet. And I live into that question of what that looks like every minute of every day because I know what it feels like to feel joyful so often from a really rooted place. And for me, joy bears creativity and that is a place that I find a home. And I want a lot of people to find a home in too.
You know,
Becky: The more I sit with. Get comfortable in this space of privilege, of my own privilege and, you know, listening to other people speak of privilege. The more I see the importance of the acknowledgement, that is really importance, the awareness of it, which clearly you have, Kate, I definitely have.
I know Christina has. And then beyond that, I think it can get in the way, you know, because once you have awareness that some people are born with privilege and some aren’t, and no one had a choice in what they were born into, I think anything beyond that and continuing to recognize the way we have privilege, right?
It’s not like that awareness stops, but just I’m thinking of like the, the, the privilege of joy, even to take that. Like if I were to sit in that stance, who am I to? Like how am I determining that someone else doesn’t have access to joy? You know, is that me thinking like, because I have money and time, I have more access to joy.
I know plenty of billionaires I guaranteed aren’t feeling joy, you know?
Kate: Oh yeah. No, that’s, that’s the distinction. I think it’s super important to make. I, joy is very different and I don’t feel as though any one person has more of it than another.
And that actually feels like a human equalizer. But it’s up to us to cultivate and mm-hmm. We can have as much of it as we choose, but alright. There’s some exceptions to that in terms of the life circumstances that constrain it. Mm-hmm. But it’s there. Yeah.
Becky: What the other thing that was popping up is, it’s silly, but we’ll put it in the show notes. Adrienne Maree Brown yesterday posted this little song, short little song that she made up while she was, boiling her hot water. And I probably listened to it 20 times. And one of the lines was, we’re all colonized.
And it’s like, it was, it was kind of this joyful, you know, like we’re all colonized. Like we, we have privilege. Yes. As white people, as affluent people, we have so many privileges and I recognize that. And, I’m just a human trying to live a human life and be in community and the systems of oppression oppress us all.
And the, I think when we can get to that place, that’s what I mean where I think privilege, if you live in it too long, can, can fester the feelings of guilt and shame and they’re informative, but if you don’t process them and move through you, they can get stuck and they can keep us separate because then you’re in a category of I am a privileged person and you are a not privileged person.
And that just keeps us separate. It’s one more keeps box.
Kate: Yeah. I, yes, I agree. It’s hard. And then I, yeah. Yeah,
Becky: but you have to feel like the, you have to feel those, those feelings of guilt are that I feel all the time. It’s not like, oh, I’m done with guilt. I felt it this morning. You know? And then you have to have a practice, I think, and now I’m getting a little too preachy, but you, you have to have a practice of knowing how to feel whatever amount of, of, of that feeling in that moment so it can move through.
Kate: I feel as though that there’s someone in this conver, so this is new topic, um related, but I feel as though there’s someone in this conversation who’s not here yet.
And that’s Jenny. And I say this because, I feel very lucky to be oriented around people and find them. You, Becky, definitely Christina, who’s just up the street from me. So close to their relationship with, with joy and and I think one of the joy through nature, through art, through music, through community connection, through like.
You know, little moments. And in meeting Jenny, like that sparks flu like right away. And you’re gonna have the chance to talk to her on this podcast if you haven’t already. But, this question, like you asked about a relationship to Joy and Christina, you talked about how deeply you live into it.
And I think I am remembering my relationship to Joy as a through thread. I think that I put it away and I had a more, maybe polished a little bit more of a veneer or as we say in the kid craft world, modge podge, over it. And that just means like I was doing standup comedy, I was doing sketch comedy, I was doing things that are funny and joyful, but it’s a little bit different, right?
It’s a little bit different. It’s definitely performative. It’s quite literally performative. I. I think my relationship to the true sense of joy and the spark is, is reemerging. But however, I’ve always collected these people in my life, it’s not an accident. And I’m so grateful. I say I have the best friends in the whole, like just a great wacky crew around the country, who also express their joy in like such genuine ways that are very different.
Um, and they’re wonderful people. And I kind of sparked this question for me about like, I think I’m, yes, joy is my through threat. I wouldn’t say I always have a consistent relationship to it. I’m growing into it and I want it and I’m building it. But I’ve always been a joy anthropologist and I’m really interested in the question of joy and where it’s found and how it’s accessed.
And maybe this is that researcher part of my brain too, Christina, we referenced, but. What sparks it in me is different than you. But I am interested in all of this as a phenomenon, as a part of our own humanity. But the power of it, I think, is something that deserves a little bit more talking space, like a little bit more space to both talk about, to recognize and then more ritualized spaces to feel and, celebrate that feeling.
And so I brought up Jenny a little bit because this is, she’s thinking about this question with me and that is very much where we are planting a seed, not sure where it goes, not sure exactly what it is, but responding to a moment where we feel it’s necessary, where this is a time for community and, and for, .
Remembering our own aliveness, remembering who we are, finding places to refuel. And so we’ve started something called the Joy Fire Project, and that is sort of the next iteration of this, of experimentations around joy and invitations around joy to a place to start as I, as we consider and continue to explore what this might become.
Christina: . It’s so great. I’m sure at some point we’ll have both of you on at the same time to talk about what Joy Fire is blossoming into. And I love that you’re just, you’re just living into the question of like, what does joy look like in all of these different people? And, I really respect the fact that you’re just starting.
Kate: Mm-hmm. Yeah, just starting.
Christina: Just, yeah, you have the right idea and you’re just beginning with that idea, or right or wrong, it’s not even, you have the right idea. You have an idea that lands in your bodies and hearts and spirits so fully that you just get to plant it in the ground and grow it into whatever.
I mean, it could be many different plants. Mm-hmm. Um, I, it probably will be, but the form that it takes is not where you put your responsibility or expectation, but rather you just plant the right seeds for you in this moment and see what fruits they bear. It’s so, it’s what I encourage so, so many people to do, not to get so stuck on the end result, but to just let the real honest thing be born through you.
It’s so great.
Kate: Thanks, Christina.
Christina: Mm-hmm.
The music was recorded live as a part of the Sound Service at 3S Art Space in Portsmouth, New Hampshire in January, 2025, where musicians responded to the changing light in the room that reflected and refracted through Christina’s suspended artwork. Andrew Halchak, the composer of this piece is playing bass clarinet and Tomas Cruz and Katie Seiler are singing.
Becky: Thank you so much for saying that and for seeing me, as always, I felt it and it was exactly, um, like we talked about it, it’s my, me showing up for myself as I committed to in our group of doing the practices that support me. So I meditated, I journaled before this, then we did this grounding together, which I don’t know, I maybe we do with all of our guests.
And with each other, um, going forward because it, it, it’s like when we ground in a, in a shared circle, it’s like, um, grounds us in that space and time. Thank you. Thank you for saying that. I definitely felt it and I know exactly why it happened. I love you so much. Oh, such a gift. So many gifts.
